Creating the Perfect Game

Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:26 am

One point:

In Skyrim, there is only a 50 Magicka difference between a High Elf Destruction Mage and an Orc Destruction Mage.

In Oblivion you could have, at the very least, had a Magicka pool double that size between the two.
That's why I advocated different HMS multipliers for different races. (I had it in my sig for a long time...) If bonuses will disappear at the 100 cap, they are meaningless.

I think the new system is pretty good. I would limit the number of perks but I think that won't happen. Adding more perks would work towards more choice and consequence. Apparently, most perks are useless or undesirable. And perk lines shouldn't railroad player. Skill requirements are already in place. And perks should show in skill number too. A fully perked maxed skill should show a number that is over 100 or an empty perk tree should be capped at ~50. (Someone should come with a system to make this work with skill requirements).

Maybe, having the base 1/5 perks to have a different pool. Like golden perk points you would get every 5 levels, or something like that, might divide the power better. Just an idea.

Overall this system is better and I say that as a Morrowind fan. Most of the character differentiation is an illusion. With my super RP "discipline", I could do this stuff in Oblivion and Morrowind too but Skyrim put a frame on it, now everyone is encouraged. And I think that's good.
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Justin Bywater
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:18 am

That's why I advocated different HMS multipliers for different races.

What is an "HMS multiplier"?

EDIT: I think I just figured this out. Health/Magicka/Stamina, right?
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Smokey
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:18 am

What is an "HMS multiplier"?

EDIT: I think I just figured this out. Health/Magicka/Stamina, right?
Yes. Like x1.4 for Nords, x1.2 for Breton... So they will end up with very different health/magicka/stamina pools.
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Victoria Vasileva
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:28 am

That's why I advocated different HMS multipliers for different races. (I had it in my sig for a long time...) If bonuses will disappear at the 100 cap, they are meaningless.

I think the new system is pretty good. I would limit the number of perks but I think that won't happen. Adding more perks would work towards more choice and consequence. Apparently, most perks are useless or undesirable. And perk lines shouldn't railroad player. Skill requirements are already in place. And perks should show in skill number too. A fully perked maxed skill should show a number that is over 100 or an empty perk tree should be capped at ~50. (Someone should come with a system to make this work with skill requirements).

Maybe, having the base 1/5 perks to have a different pool. Like golden perk points you would get every 5 levels, or something like that, might divide the power better. Just an idea.

Overall this system is better and I say that as a Morrowind fan. Most of the character differentiation is an illusion. With my super RP "discipline", I could do this stuff in Oblivion and Morrowind too but Skyrim put a frame on it, now everyone is encouraged. And I think that's good.

I think I follow you.

I feel TES should continue to follow suit with the no set class restrictions, i.e. Orcs can't be Mages, however I really believe that if at anytime during the life cycle of gameplay that the player is given a "nudge" towards a certain archetype for each race, i.e. Orcs getting higher starting levels for Warrior skills, then those "nudges" should really stand out and most importantly last from creation to end game completion.

I feel that a High Elf should never be as good as a Warrior as an Orc can be because if they are then there is little to no difference between selecting races to begin with.
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Emma Louise Adams
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:54 am

maybe i want to role play as a god among the puny people, what makes my character special is he is a master of most things.
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Michelle davies
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:31 am

Yes. Like x1.4 for Nords, x1.2 for Breton... So they will end up with very different health/magicka/stamina pools.

That is not a bad idea.
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cassy
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:40 am

That is not a bad idea.

Why this wasn't implemented I have no idea.

What's stranger still, isn't the only HMS racial bonus the High Elf's +50 Magicka?
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Nick Swan
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:53 am


There is only 50 Magicka difference between a High Elf Mage and an Orc Mage of the same variety. That's bad.


Im not deliberately asking a super short question to avoid proper discussion, but i will pose one: Why is this so bad?
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Sheila Reyes
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:52 am

Im not deliberately asking a super short question to avoid proper discussion, but i will pose one: Why is this so bad?

Because it reduces the choice between races to purely cosmetic.

If in the event I want to create a High Elf, who are known for being Mages, I expect it to stand out from the crowd in a significant fashion, because I am following an archetype they have "made famous."
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Jessie
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:22 am

Yes, you could spam training in Morrowind, if you took the time to find the Master trainer for each skill. That in itself could be a challenge and a rather timeconsuming task if one did not take the easy way out by looking it up on the UESP. Certain skills in Oblivion took a lot of effort to level, even when spamming. Blade, Blunt, Block, Marksman, Security, and Alchemy all took a fair amount of effort if they were a minor skill outside your specialization. Not that it couldn't be done, mind you but it did take some effort.



Okay, so two handfulls of different builds in Skyrim if you roleplay a particular role that only uses certain skills. Prior games had more meaningful racial distinctions and birthsigns, which distinguished characters from each other even if you did level all minor skills to 100.

Oh, I agree that birthsigns etc helped differentiate characters (as I said in my 1st post in this thread) but thats changing the subject. The perk and skills system provides more differentiation between characters than skills alone did.
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Nikki Lawrence
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:35 am

See now you missed my earlier argument. There are not multiple mage combinations in Skyrim. With something like 56 perk points to spend you can take every meaningful magic perk in all six magical schools (you don't need the cost reducing perks with enchant because of free casting). Add another 7 perks and you can get every meaningful alchemy perk for a mage. How does that provide diversity in mage builds in Skyrim?

To get free casting reuires 8 perks in enchant so its hardly cost free.
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Janine Rose
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:54 am

I see. I guess I am not bothered by purely cosmetic (+smalle racial bonuses) since the player doesn't have to compare his high level Orc Mage to his High level High Elf Mage (2 separate games). Both are going to be significantly superior to any mages in the game eventually, so as long as the NPC population isn't rife with Orc mages and Elf warriors and other style-opposite arrangements, I don't see much of an issue. I guess what is your definition of "the crowd"? Is it your other player characters or other people in the game.

Or if you are comparing your characters, and you don't want your Orc to be as good a Mage as your high elf, don't make him be.
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ezra
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:28 pm

Or if you are comparing your characters, and you don't want your Orc to be as good a Mage as your high elf, don't make him be.

That's not a decision I like making.

When I play my characters I want them to be the best they can be, period. However when I play my characters I want there to be reasons within the game, not just my own, to support my choice of race. To me, Skyrim reflects Dragon Age II character creation: with the race differences as small as they are, I'm pretty much just playing as Hawke and choosing a class, I'm not picking an Elf and then deciding if I want to go down the Rogue or Mage route.

It doesn't have the same weight to it.
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Sarah Evason
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:50 pm

Sorry for crashing this proper and interesting discussion, but one thing I don't understand: Why are people so hung up on character creation? It's definately not Skyrims (or the ES-series) biggest problem imo. A CC-system could be 'perfect', allowing a thousand different character builds, but what's the point if the world is dead as a rock?

I need more than a fancy, digitalized Bratzdull to dress if I am to keep my interest in this. I want a world that reacts to my decisions and I want my strategical abilities to be tested. In short: I want a game. Not necessarily perfect. Just a game.

Am I the only one??
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Del Arte
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:36 am

Am I the only one??

Nope.

But we could probably get a full eight pages, or more, of how dead the world can be.
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Eddie Howe
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:19 pm

Nope.

But we could probably get a full eight pages, or more, of how dead the world can be.

But the dead world IS the main problem. Why this nitpicking on character building when it's the whole concept around it that is wrong?

*sigh* ... I'm not contributing.

Carry on...
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Stu Clarke
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:10 am

But the dead world IS the main problem. Why this nitpicking on character building when it's the whole concept around it that is wrong?

*sigh* ... I'm not contributing.

Carry on...

You are partially correct, I feel.

Character creation is a part of the whole world, the complete narrative if you will. The world is dead in many areas, not just limited to character creation, but it's certainly one of the many stepping stones, and the first one you come to encounter.
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Angelina Mayo
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:31 am

First: no, it's not possible to create a perfect game. People will always whine about something.

However I completely disagree that you can be a master of everything in Skyrim. A character with 100 points in Illusion and the full perk tree is always going to be significantly more powerful than a character with 100 points in Illusion and no perks. The perk system has pretty well ensured that you can no longer truly master every skill in the game and become a thief-mage-warrior-thai-massage-therapist hybrid demigod.
THE ONLY ONE WHINING HERE IS YOU! Always the same answer you have.
....this is the only possible way, and you should accept it
....there is never something to be perfect
....i admire everything that won'T deinstall itself because of my ever fatal approach
....blablabla

Seriously, there is something like perfect games. Not in terms that it fulfills every wish everyone could have,
but by implementing the stuff it has in a rather amazing way. And Skyrim is pretty far from that.

What do you know what is going on?
Did you ever take a peak behind the surface?
Did you ever watch the Nvidia and AMD Feature demos, and wonder about their perfection?
Clothing simulation, soft particles, fluid simulation, displacement mapping, unlimited geometry?
there is a BIG, HUGE black hole opening right in front of you every time you stir into Skyrim and don't take the slightest note.

this week the Kepler gpu was released, and it is time for us PC users to be aware that this card is running at astronomical 3TFlops.
Consoles wreck the PC platform, and only therefore we are supporting Steam.
It would be an exceptional wonder if the two main competitors could bring games to a point where these actually are able to exploit the gpu.
If you like the current situation, then you should be even glad to effectively gain only 25% out of your life in the future. Call this kool.
Im operating at the speed of a bicycle, with the power and price of a ferrari. And this is NOT kool.
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Quick Draw
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:27 am

I think the point that people who are opposed to racial modifiers don't get is that racial modifiers are a reward to the people who want them, not a limitation.

It's true that Skyrim doesn't penalize us for playing a specific race, but it's also true that it doesn't reward us for playing a specific race, whether that's a statistical advantage by playing into a racial stereotype, or the satisfaction of overcoming a racial handicap. It's the same reason why it's disappointing when NPCs don't react to your race or accomplishments. Sure, you can pretend that they're saying: "Good job, even if you are a Khajiit," but it would be nice if the game did it for you.

And please don't pretend that that old chestnut: "you don't need the game to do it for you if you're any good at role-playing" has any merit. It's a truly weak argument and always has been. I am a top-notch role-player, not a number-crunching min/maxer. If imagining everything were better than really seeing or hearing it, humans wouldn't have invented art, literature, music, film, or video games. More importantly, if your imagination is so darn good, please explain why you bought the game in the first place or why you read novels or go to the movies? I'm guessing it's because these things are useful props that make your imaginings better. We're just trying to figure out how the prop could be improved.

I want the racial modifiers because I want to be challenged by playing a character who doesn't fit into the archetype. I'm disappointed that the game doesn't offer me that challenge. There is no way, in Skyrim, to enjoy the accomplishment of overcoming a racial challenge because there aren't any.

Personally--and I expect the majority of players will hate the idea--I would do a couple of things:
  • get rid of the level cap on skills
  • make all skills harder to level based on total experience earned, rather than per skill
  • apply racial modifiers that make advancing in certain skills easier or harder depending on your race
So, in theory, you could play forever and raise every skill to 'godlike' levels, but it would take you forever to do it, rather like the 'perfect arrow' anology earlier. The more total xp you had, the harder it would be to level every skill, not just the skill you're leveling. Lower level skills would still level faster than higher level skills, but not as quickly at higher levels as they would at lower levels. With this kind of mechanic, the skills you use the most would level the fastest, but leveling them would also slow down leveling every other skill. Your characters would develop distinct builds without being restricted. The 'level cap' would be player exhaustion: the character is capped at the level the player stops playing them.

The racial modifiers would just make it slightly easier for an Altmer to raise Illusion, for example, than an Orc, and slightly harder to raise Two-Handed, though neither one of them would have a hard cap. Theoretically, each could have the same amount of skill, but one would get there sooner. An Altmer might have an Illusion skill of 85 on level 30, for example, while the Orc, using the same skill the same amount as the Altmer might only have a skill of 80. I would also have racial perk trees that give other kinds of racial advantages but I talked about that in another thread, so I won't belabor the point here. Playing an Orc Illusionist under these conditions is more appealing to me because it presents more of a challenge without imposing any kind of restriction on my choices. The game is rewarding me for choosing a specific race, rather than ignoring me.
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louise fortin
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:57 am

Is it possible to create a perfect game?

I think the only way it would be possible to make a completely perfect game would be to make it yourself. And even then even the creator might not be happy with everything. 'Perfect' isn't really obtainable IMO.

As for the other stuff, I like how Skyrim did things. Sure some things could be better but again nothing is going to be solid in every element.
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naome duncan
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:15 pm

THE ONLY ONE WHINING HERE IS YOU! Always the same answer you have.
....this is the only possible way, and you should accept it
....there is never something to be perfect
....i admire everything that won'T deinstall itself because of my ever fatal approach
....blablabla

Seriously, there is something like perfect games. Not in terms that it fulfills every wish everyone could have,
but by implementing the stuff it has in a rather amazing way. And Skyrim is pretty far from that.

What do you know what is going on?
Did you ever take a peak behind the surface?
Did you ever watch the Nvidia and AMD Feature demos, and wonder about their perfection?
Clothing simulation, soft particles, fluid simulation, displacement mapping, unlimited geometry?
there is a BIG, HUGE black hole opening right in front of you every time you stir into Skyrim and don't take the slightest note.

this week the Kepler gpu was released, and it is time for us PC users to be aware that this card is running at astronomical 3TFlops.
Consoles wreck the PC platform, and only therefore we are supporting Steam.
It would be an exceptional wonder if the two main competitors could bring games to a point where these actually are able to exploit the gpu.
If you like the current situation, then you should be even glad to effectively gain only 25% out of your life in the future. Call this kool.
Im operating at the speed of a bicycle, with the power and price of a ferrari. And this is NOT kool.

Yes, I've seen demos. No, I don't think that games are (or should be) geared towards the top 1% of PC users who can afford to get the best card on the market every time a new one is released.

The graphics demos you're referring to are just that: demos. They aren't meant to be a representation of what someone could actually do with a game that required coding for, you know, gameplay.

And as to your ludicrous generalization of what I'm saying, you at least got it partially right: there is no such thing as the perfect game. As you can see from these forums, people have such wildly varying opinions of what "perfect" would be that any developer trying to appease them all would simply create a convoluted mess of a game. Developers can always aspire to create the best possible game, but they're never going to be perfect. And that's not a bad thing.

There's no problem with wanting more out of your gaming experience, unless you're simply making unrealistic demands that would financially hobble developers and cripple anything but the most expensive systems.
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roxxii lenaghan
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:49 pm

To get free casting reuires 8 perks in enchant so its hardly cost free.

I don't think 8 perks is enough to get free casting, but then again I don't agree with the idea of 'free casting' anyhow.

I do agree with everyone who has posted that the racial differences are not enough. Sure orcs get berzerk and argonians health regen and bretons magic resistance, but I don't think its enough.

Maybe more racial powers once you hit 20th level or maybe make it where each race get one +15 skill, one +10 skill, and a couple +5 skills would be better? Its hard to think, I'm hung over.
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:56 am

I don't think 8 perks is enough to get free casting, but then again I don't agree with the idea of 'free casting' anyhow.

I do agree with everyone who has posted that the racial differences are not enough. Sure orcs get berzerk and argonians health regen and bretons magic resistance, but I don't think its enough.

Maybe more racial powers once you hit 20th level or maybe make it where each race get one +15 skill, one +10 skill, and a couple +5 skills would be better? Its hard to think, I'm hung over.

I made a thread all about that.
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Richus Dude
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:37 am

I made a thread all about that.

About being hung over or about races having great differences? If the latter, fair play to you then.
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Claire Jackson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:52 pm

I don't think 8 perks is enough to get free casting, but then again I don't agree with the idea of 'free casting' anyhow.

Actually, you can get free casting with 6 perks and a top store bought potion.

As to free casting, why not? It's obviously intended by the Devs (at least in one school) because of how the numbers work out.
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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