Sir, mam, whichever, the point is this...

Open world RPGs are about being played as the user sees fit (mostly). Even IF (might I add... you're quite wrong in assuming you could even begin to comprehend my playing methods, as none of my builds are what you'd call "cookie cutter ideal," but I digress...) I were playing "for the sake of killing things," then that should be a viable option.

My argument here is that when you improve in doing something, you well... improve in doing it. Simultaneously improving while getting worse is hardly improving, if you could call it improving at all (Here's a great example... do you REALLY get more mileage out of one Fus Ro Dah as compared to 3 Fus? I can answer that, but you'd disagree, so feel free to experiment. Prepare for disappointment though). From the perspective of pure common sense it's already illogical. From the perspective of Skyrim, it's the reason you'd find that most people ultimately quit bothering to use shouts much, if at all. Save for a couple of shouts, most of them can't even compare to available magic spells or potions. Of those that can compare, their recharge times are so long for the variants worth actually using that bothering to use them becomes more of a hassle or a gimmick than an actual tool.

Again, PLEASE do not attempt to even start any sort of conversation with me about balance. You have absolutely no concept of imbalanced if you find anything I'm saying to be out of order. I've already given you two examples of things far and away more imbalanced that what I've talking about, so you really have no ground to stand on. I've played some of the most notoriously broken games of all time, so I have a very thorough understanding of balance (and a lack there of). Skyrim's brand of "broken" is a toddler's binky by comparison.

The Amulet of Talos? You're kidding me right? How many people do you think actually wear that thing? Not to mention... 20%? Seriously? That's a whole 8 seconds off of FORTY. It's not even worth mentioning the trivial amount it would take off of 15 seconds.

You must be new to Elder Scrolls, so I'm going to try to make this even simpler for you to comprehend.

Elder Scrolls games
are
always
BROKEN.

Always. This is not a figurative always. I mean they are literally always broken. Skyrim itself, is broken. And shouts are nowhere close to being the root of the "broken" in skyrim. You Could make shouts have a cooldown of 5 seconds and they'd still be less broken than some of the crap in Skyrim.

With that said, that's not necessarily a problem. You have the option of controlling just how broken the game is. My -NOT- making one shot kill weapons? That's me controlling the broken potential of Skyrim. My intentionally making things more difficult on myself in terms of game choices to fit my specific character's roles? I'm doing the same thing there. In fact, 5 of my characters are all part of one giant role-played family. So managing to maintain some sort of lore about them in itself is me controlling their being broken. I'm not saying everyone has to or should play that way, as my method is simply the -option- I've chosen.

What I'm suggesting still leaves you that option if you decide that it's broken. However, the reverse is not true. If I want to use my most powerful shout every 15 seconds, I can't. I'm forced to use it every 40 seconds like you enjoy it. However, if it was made 15 seconds, we can both play how we want because no one would be forcing you to use it every 15 seconds like I want to. Get it?

Open world RPG. That's Elder Scrolls. You're given a sandbox to play in as you see fit, and for the most part, everything ends up making some level of sense. But the recharge on shouts? Sorry, they just don't. Honing your voice resulting in it taking longer for you to use it is just outright silly. If somebody ever walked up to me and told me that they got better at running a 40 by "improving" a 4.4 to a 4.8, but their legs were stronger, I'd smack them in the mouth for killing my brain cells with such a stupid comment.

And no, you don't have to keep the fortify shout buff in mind. You can't even enchant with it yourself, and the whopping 20% you can achieve is an absolute joke. Furthermore, it's on items that people likely never end up actually continuing to use once almost anything marginally better comes along. The one item it's "supposed" to be on that would actually have good end-game usability is Morokei, and it's bugged/missing on that particular item.

Here's a list of far and away more broken things in Skyrim that have 15 second shouts couldn't even begin to approach

Free destruction spells (Self explanatory)
Free alteration spells (Free Mass Paralysis... yea... ain't a shout in the game that compares to that)
Free illusion (aka, free perma invisibility)
Free restoration (god mode, minus being one-shotted)
Maximized sneak/perks (invisibility, even in plain sight)
Ebony Blade-specialized characters (unkillable unless they can stop you from swinging... so since they really can't you're just unkillable)
Smithing (Make weapons that one-shot Dragons... lol, and Mehrunes Dagon thinks his Razor is something)

The list goes on
...and on
.... and on.

And you know what, it's just fine because that's just what Elder Scrolls is. A broken game with a sturdy base to let you build your own fun upon.

If shout recharge times didn't svck you could actually potentially role play something similar to what the Jarl of Windhelm had been rumored to do to the High King. That is, shout him to death. As it stands, you'd need multiple shouts to kill a "lowly" bandit, and several minutes to even do it at all. And again I say, considering you're this sort of demigod being, that's just pretty damn pathetic. Once upon a time I actually planned to make a shout-focused character, but then I realized how much of a most-of-the-time-useless gimmick they really are.

Feel free to disagree, but us agreeing to disagree is just about all that will come of this. When I'm wrong I have no problem admitting it, but I'm just not wrong here. The recharging of shouts is presently completely bassackwards.

Animal Allegiance = Command Creature
Aura Whisper = Detect Life
Become Ethereal < Enchant for 100% Resist Magic, 100% Reflect Damage
Call Dragon = ... EDIT: Lost many Daedric summons though
Call of Valor = ... Summon Dremora?
Clear Skies = HAHAHA
Disarm < Disintegrate Weapon
Dismay = Fear
Dragonrend = Specific to dragons, doesn't matter otherwise
Elemental Fury = Good! EDIT: Fortify Strength and/or (Blade | Blunt ) would be in many ways effectively similar
Fire Breath = Any fire spell
Frost Breath = Any frost spell
Ice Form = Frost spell + paralysis
Kyne's Peace < Calm, since it only works on animals
Marked for Death = Disintegrate Armor
Slow time = Good!
Storm Call = Good, but takes too long you might as well do an AoE lightning spell and hit them all at once, may need some fortify magicka though.
Throw Voice = Good, but unnecessary if you can muffle + invisibility your way around
Unrelenting Force = Good!
Whirlwind Sprint = Fortify Speed and/or Athletics. I have this in Oblivion, high value but only for a few seconds. Actually doesn't cost much, I can zip around all day.

Who needs shouts?

Makes sense. I suppose distrust is a better way of putting it. I just remember the Redguard mage in one of the guild halls in Oblivion. I just got the impression he really had an internal battle going on about using magic. Especially certain types.

Thanks for the explanation.

I agree with moat of what you said but I use become ethereal as a way to travel too, and its great to get closer to archers not just mages its a great shout.

Clear skies is great too, to role play a powerful magic user.XD

Whirlwind sprint is a great "teleportation" method up close anyways.
Other than that I agree.

Your welcome.

That Redguard did have a strong biased against conjuration and illusion if I recall. Yes he did not use those but there are mages of every race some cultures just do not look openly at magic that foes not mean its not there or that it is weakened.

I really hadn't thought about this, but.. yeah, why SHOULD a mage have to use flippin' lockpicks? Also, I'm doing a playthrough with a thief/assassin type character with no Shouts at the moment, but once I finish with her I might try a shoutless mage just to see how well it works.

I do miss Water Walking from the other games, though. And Open Lock (and Lock, actually. Locking a door behind you when fleeing from guards was awesome). Also miss On Touch spells for some reason.

I love the touch spells in Oblivion. Always enjoyed watching an angry goblin run up to me and get ready to swing his mace or sword. A quick touch and watching him fall over dead is great fun.

@Bad: And how many people were irked with that? MANY. How many calls have their been to cap the free casting down to a 85%, to add new types of fortify school to increase things like power and duration of spells, to completely overhaul how smithing is done? It's like, three threads for each new day. Don't even think you have the high road here, you're completely ignoring the fact that there's a lot of people here who want a balanced game and have been making a big fuss because it's not.

Guess what? I'm one of them. You can take your broken mechanics and shove it.

I just think they should've stuck to their own style rather than change it to a Bioshock-inspired system. I don't think shouts have anything to do with magic, in fact they could've still put those shouts into spells if they want to. The fact that there are things like detect life shouts and fear shouts prove it: those actually HAVE spell counterparts. They just didn't think they would make good spells, or just plain didn't think about implementing them as spells. But if they wanted to, the fact that they're already shouts wouldn't hold them back from making them spells, you would just be trading off a cooldown and no mana usage to no cooldown and mana usage. Its all balanced because of the way shouts work.

And a mage doesn't have to open locks, ever. Either ignore locked things entirely, find a key, or hire a lockpicker to do the job for you.

I agree

I think the fact that there was a GI article stating that they removed spells to make shouts more special is pretty conclusive proof that shouts ruined magic. I think if shouts were to be included they should have been a handful of very strong effects, like Dragonrend, Call Dragon, and hell, I'll even give you Marked for Death, and not had things like animal charm and detect life.

Frankly, the argument some are making that "Well I have a warrior, and I want to have magic-like effects, but I don't want to learn any effing magic" is what the British would normally refer to as '[censored]'. You want to 'pew pew' some fire or lightning, go learn some spells. Melee characters are quite powerful without needing any help.

@Role: Like 99% of the people on here are guys, or are guys who pretend to be girls on the internet for some reason, so I wouldn't get worked up about being called sir. If you want to be that way, I might just change my icon to a females and demand everyone call me princess.

The only people who get irked at people "cheating" in single player games that have nothing to do with their own experiences are simply, idiots. There's no other way to lay it out. It's idiotic and quite childish to attempt to have Bethesda put baby gloves on EVERYONE just because of those who have an inability to control themselves. If people want to ruin all hope of balance in their own copy of the game, what exactly is the problem with that? I'll answer that for you -> there isn't one. Nobody has you bent over a table with a gun to the back of your head forcing you to use ANY kind of exploit in Skyrim.

So yes, I do ignore people who want the game to be balanced toward them due to their own lack of self control. I have no reason to consider such people as worthy of being considered as part of anything I say. I think it's profoundly silly to have free magic costs and instakill weapons, but you know what, what the [censored] do other people's enjoyment of cheating have to do with me or my copy of this SINGLE PLAYER game? Nothing. Absolutely, NOTHING.

So, if you're one of these people who needs someone to hold your hand just to not cheat yourself out of the experience of a friggin video game, take your own words and choke on them. And again I say, you have NO CONCEPT of what "broken" truly is.

Anywho, I'm done with the matter. Arguing with women I'm not sleeping with just isn't my thing (hell... arguing in general isn't, but definitely not in this case). Think what you will, I don't care. As I said before, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But in this broken series of a single player game where option supercedes the importance of balancing the game for people with a lack of self control, you and everyone else who needs their hand held not to break their game experience don't have a pebble to stand on to talk me down about the matter. Deuces.

No. I think it gave a more versatile gameplay to every kind of character that can be roleplayed, as much as enriching the storyline of the game itself.

You know the whole "they removed magic to make shouts special" is hardly true. They removed magic to make everything else special.

Again, old spell effects cannot be found in shouts, but they can be found in alchemy, racial/vampire/birthsign powers and enchantments.

Magic was the "I can do it too, only better" solution, if you became a master of restoration you could become any other class you wanted, let's not mention other spells that make other class skills a complete joke like the already mentioned open lock spells and chameleon. Now there's less redundancy, you need to break the game in a different manner.

I defintiely agree that in terms of magic, there isn't much there in skyrim. The mages guild was frankly a joke, you need to know maybe three spells to beat the entire thing, and it had almost nothing to do with learning magic at all. Oblivions guild was far superior. And the addition of shouts definitely has had some effect on magic. In fact, now that I think about it, you raise a lot of excellent points. Since we can do all that with shouts, why should we add more spells? -Unboutably that was the line of thinking involved. Hopefully in future DLC, magic will be improved.

For me the thing is that Shouts are technically a form of magic. They feel like free magic for warriors when mages actually have to work for their power and BUY their spells. Rarely do we find free spell books and often have we bought the spell already. Getting Shouts isn't exactly a walk in the glade but in my opinion, Dragons are WAY too easy to kill and many Word Walls are found at the end of quest anyway. So it seems to me that warriors are getting a free pass because they get weapons, armor and Shouts from just questing while mages have to all that plus pay for spells.

who says they are removing the spells? i figured the reason they have magic the way it is was because spell creation was too OP and ended up cluttering up your menu with the letter A, plus most of the spells were clones of eachother, it was a fireball that did 3 damage for 10 seconds with a 20ft area, or a fireball that did 50 damage total with no extra time or a ...............................................................................................................................for 12 seconds

Ive asserted this idea a couple month back- i too believe spells got paled to make shouts more appealing.

Nope spellcrafting was a staple of this series. The OP argument is invalid, in a single player game OP is in the eye of the beholder.

The removal of magic made everything else special, that's rich.

Magic along with spell creation and spells types gave diversity and options to being a mage that is what mages a delight to play. they were great fun to play, i never needed a sword or a lockpick why because I was a mage.

It's funny when people say oh magic in Skyrim is great and they gutted it to make other things stand out more. Lol at that. It's funny how when I made a warrior in Morrowind and Oblivion that never used magic just because magic had freedom. People lack self control if they cannot stay away from something they do not want for thay character.

We simply need spell creation and more spells, magic in Skyrim is very one dimensional.

I rather agree with this, I think shouts sort of saved magic in this game. A lot went into them they made up an entire language that's pretty crazy on it's own. Gameplay wise though the shouts just unlocked magic for any build regardless of RPG archtypes. Elderscrolls wasn't really locked into arch types too badly though in my opinion because if a regular arch-type (warrior,mage,theif, or branches there off) class wasn't useful skillwise you could create a custom one and just focus on the skills you wanted.
It seems like a lot of magic uses just got demolished and got added to shouts instead in addition to some unique stuff. For me really the shout system is so great I don't ever find myself wanting to ever use much of the magic skills branched spells.
When I do use them I find most of the stuff I liked from the previous games is gone(personal pet peeve although I could probably do most of that stuff with alchemy).

Restoration is so useful because generally speaking, you don't adventure in groups where one person can specialize in healing, another in melee, another in destruction, etc (like D&D games)

My only issue I have with spellcrafting was that you could like shoot a fireball that also healed you a little bit at the same time, that was a bit goofy.

You're not weird, I'm the same way Rather be a mage with an amazing variety of spells than a super hero....

It really kind of did. Playing a pure mage felt kind of redundant to me. If they fixed destruction magic and nerfed enchanting I would give a pure mage a try.