If a game series goes from being a really good open-world RPG series to an action-adventure series, it really doesn't matter to me how much of an improvement the action is. I'm not going to be happy with the change. If I wanted an action-adventure game, i'd buy one. When I buy TES games, I expect an open-world RPG.

It's people like you that are killing the RPG genre.

If you want to assume the role of a character without all the stats/numbers, and run around exploring a gameworld, finding items, interacting with NPCs, progressing through a storyline, etc. you can do all of that in an action-adventure game.


Daggerfall's character creation / development system was leagues ahead of Skyrim. SO much better it's almost hard to believe both games are from the same series...

Climbing - had a purpose in Daggerfall, it was removed already in Morrowind where you only had the levitate spell. Athletics - In Oblivion it was a skill everyone leveled unless they only walked throughout the game which I very much doubt anyone did, the skill itself was something everyone sooner or later would get leveled to max skill as it was used every time you ran somewhere. Removal of this and adding these things to the game so you don't have to unlock the things isn't really having a big impact on the game as in previous games I'm pretty sure 99,9% of the players got this to max sooner or later. Acrobatics - This skill did serve a purpose, but just as Athletics it was a skill most people would level up sooner or later. Part because reaching end level required you to do so and part becauise it was easy skill to level. Both Athletics and Acrobatics could easy have been merged into one skill in Skyrim and given it's separate perk tree with 2 branches for some of the same bonuses as they gave earlier. Hand to Hand - This one I don't really know why they removed, it would make sense that it should be there as the skill itself would also add some things to the game, with a combined perk for athletics and acrobatics this could also have been used as 2 good starting points in creating a monk class.

I just told you what daggerfalls development system was, its not much different. I don't know how you can honestly say it is drastically better, by having a handful more options. Nothing to cry about.

Its people like you who are obsessed with numbers defining your character and complaining to the rest of us enjoying our game. Don't you see the game is only " dumb downed" when you're obsessed about stats.

I admit, spell creation was nice, having a few more skills was nice. But not having a few more skills doesnt break the game. Nor is you complaining about it helping any one else. Nobody cares about your dependency on numbers, when you're only going to compare it to games back when numbers and text were the ONLY content. Whether you or I like it or not, animations and graphics precede numbers. If you want numbers and text being the main focus, those games are there from pre 2000 and still being made, on Xbox arcade and Nintendo ds.

In this age, you have to have balance. Pure Action adventure games don't have stats like Skyrim. Pure Action adventure games don't have content, such as the amount of factions, main quests , side quests, specific items, inventory, like Skyrim. Skyrim is a good mix of RPG and pure action adventure.

Everything you said is true,and I like all of it,except the end.

I'd rather leave it if this is how games are becoming. And no Im not talking about Skyrim, Im talking about the multitude of crappy boring games coming out lately that are all just rehashed first person shooters or some other genre thats been overdone to death. Whatever happened to innovation? Trying new ideas? I find myself unable to play any video games unless its unique and doesn't remind me of other games.

I have reached that point in life that,after playing tens of thousands of video games,nothing interests me anymore unless its specifically different then everything out there in the market. I find myself trying games that I would of NEVER thought of playing,and Im having more fun playing Indie games that no one knows about then mainstream crap like Call of Duty. And no this isn't hating Call of Duty,I had fun playing the original ones up until MW2,but eventually, enough is enough. Its sad how company's are exploiting the stupidity of this current world, slapping on a new number to their game and calling it "New", when in reality your just paying 60$ for a new story,and some new guns and maps. But they know they'll sell millions of it regardless, till hopefully ONE DAY,or SOME DAY, these people snap out of it and stop buying their games.

On another note,some companies ARE willing to try out different types of games,and Im enjoying them alot. A few examples are Alan Wake, Amnesia - The Dark Descent,
Minecraft, Terraria, etc. I dont know,but I just find these games a blast. And something a little more old school, Mister Mosquito on the PS2, that was such a fun game.

Also,for some strange reason,I've always wanted to play a game where you play as a dog,in 1st person perspective, in an open world where you can walk up and down the stairs in your house and you can see your paws and....umm...actually nevermind,now Im talking too much LOL Carry on folks,nothing to see here.

In my opinion it went from a highly overrated attempt at being a rpg (as far as roleplaying goes) to the more standard and defined action-adventure series that it has always been first and foremost.


Way to be overly dramatic...just wait for Fireaxis to release the new X-com enemy unknown title and then see what all these designers who don't believe that turn-based strategy can be implemented in rpg-games anymore will be focusing on for their next releases...


Yes...I loved how picking my race had NO impact whatsoever on my attributes, even though the game manual and character creation hints said it would...a standard of character development all rpg-games should look up to. Or how saving and re-loading when I level up since I would get random attribute bonuses made me feel like I was really involved in my character development...

I never get why people say df had a great character development... When you leveled up, you can choose any skill to be improved by improving that attribute that the skill set feell into, even though you didn't even touch that skill at all. So you could level up in conjure without even touching any sort of magic button or skill books. Makes a whole lot of sense in believing this is how u define true role playing. :/ Least Skyrim you gain skill by doing the actual skill.

I swear, people just talk out their asses to put Skyrim down and gain some sort of glory by defining what the game should be, when they have no clue.

Of course it's different. In Skyrim, you don't even have character creation beyond deciding what they look like. You effectively enter the world as a generic blob with no unique physical attributes, etc. It feels like i'm just controlling an avatar rather than playing as a virtual person.

In Daggerfall, I can actually assign points and control exactly what kind of person my character is physically, and what their starting abilities are based on their past.

Again, numbers/stats as used to define characters and allow for progression. as well as meaningful interactions with the gameworld is what separates the RPG genre from the adventure genre or action-adventure genre. Once you start cutting the numbers out, the game becomes simpler or "dumbed down" as an RPG. Eventually, if you strip enough of them out, the game becomes an action-adventure game with basic RPG elements, like ME2 or Fable.

A good story may certainly enhance the quality of an RPG, but it is by no means whatsoever an essential or defining feature of the RPG genre.

I'm not calling Skyrim a pure action-adventure game. I'm just saying that the RPG aspect of the series has been watered down and streamlined so much that the game plays more like an sandbox action-adventure game with RPG elements, rather than an RPG like Daggerfall or Morrowind.

You must've never played daggetfall in its prime. RPG elements were way water downed for that era of rpgs. In comparison to these times, skyrim is the best RPG on console. And by contrast to both games, they really aren't that much different other than choosing handful of points in the beginning, and having handful more skills ( which you could level up in the most ridiculous way as stated as before ).... Its really nothing to go on and on about and form a conspiracy against developers accusing of them dumbing it down and putting old school number crunching guys on pedestals, like that's what real role playing is, because sorry you have to find this out now, but that opinion is severely outdated and developers couldnt care less at this point, because there's so few that do feel that way.

And I would love to hear your standpoint on the last two posts debunking df's character development making any sense RP wise, and why It's so great.

I love when people like you try to generalize what a RPG game is and not is, because you are basing it on your defenition and nothing else. The defenition of what a roleplaying game is rather simple, and I quote wikipedia here;

"A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game#cite_note-secondperson-0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game#cite_note-gurpsrp-1}) is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game in which players assume the roles of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_character in a fictional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setting_(literature). Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game#cite_note-Cover-2} Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game_system and guidelines."

This is the common defenition of what a Roleplaying game is. What you are trying to force on people wih your talk about stats and all that is your defenition of what mechanics a roleplaying game should have and not. Without a doubt majority of the large roleplaying games both electronic and paper form opereats on the basics of a stat/skill/class system. But removing classes and simplifying stats doesn't make it not a RPG if it allows you as the player to roleplay. Skyrim has in one way simplified the character mechanics from previous games, but also improved it to allow you as a player to shape your character in a ore unique way then before. The perks is bringing some complexity into the game as no longer will a Fighter that has 100 in sneak be as good to sneak as a Thief who have specialized into it. The choices you now make during character progression have a real consequence, in Oblivion you could create a fighter, but if you then leveled up sneak to reach max level you automatically would also be as good as any other thief to sneak around. In Skyrim you can level sneak to 100 to reach max level, and your character will still be a fighter and nowhere near as good as a thief in sneaking. That is a consequence you accept when choosing what perks to build on. You want to make a barbarian that uses light armor, sneaks around using two handed and bow you can do that now, want to make a barbarian that cares less about sneaking but more about smithing no problem you can do that also. In previous games once you got close to end level your character was more or less similar to any other character you made in terms of what he could do, the only difference would be his physical attributes, but if you played the game and planned a bit ahead that was never an issue either.

I played Daggerfall and as you I loved that game to bits it's the best memory in the TES series for me still today, but character progression in daggerfall isn't that different in reality. In every TES game I have leveled up by using skills, progression in each game has been somewhat similar also the higher level I get the closer to becoming a jack of all trades that can do just about anything without too much of a problem. And it has always been my main issue with TES, in most roleplay hames you play your class and is good at that class, maybe you multiclass and gets semi decent at both classes, but never will you become the ultimate jack of all trades as in TES games. This is what they have fixed in Skyrim and for me it adds more consequences on what I choose to level then in any previous games. Suddenly my choice of "class" means something from beginning to end, not like in Oblivion or Morrowind where what race you picked meant way more then what class you choosed as at some point class was no longer of importance.

I do agree that Skyrim lacks a few rpg mechanics to improve it as a rpg game, but it isn't impossible to roleplay in Skyrim with it's current mechanics. However if they improved and added more mechanics to the factions, a reputation system that actually recognized you for things you did, possibilities to set up a shop or manage the shop that your wife/husband runs in a larger degree, also they could add more factions like Outlaw, forsworn so that you as a player have more choices, by choosing outlaw as a faction most guards would be somewhat hostile and speech checks and bribes could have been used a lot more often to be able to enter cities. These are things that would improve the RPG aspect of Skyrim.

Focusing on the casuals is the worst thing they could have done. This series is headed for disaster.

Watered down? Hardly. It's character creation / development system was superior and more complex than most contemporary RPGs... with the exception perhaps of Darklands.

I'm beginning to wonder whether you've even played the game fully... or whether you're just making assumptions from what you've heard about it.

And LOL - calling Skyrim the best RPG in recent times... oh dear.

If we're going to start quoting wikipedia, I suggest reading this little snipped on the differences between adventure games and RPGs.

"Adventure games are also distinct from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game that involve action, team-building, and points management.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game#cite_note-agdefinition-6} Adventure games lack the numeric rules or relationships seen in role-playing games, and seldom have an internal economy.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game#cite_note-fundamentals-0} These games lack any skill system, combat, or "an opponent to be defeated through strategy and tactics."^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game#cite_note-rollings-4} However, some hybrid games exist here, where role-playing games with strong narrative and puzzle elements are considered RPG-adventures.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game#cite_note-14} Finally, adventure games are classified separately from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puzzle_game.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game#cite_note-agdefinition-6} Although an adventure game may involve puzzle-solving, they typically involve a player-controlled avatar in an interactive story.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game#cite_note-fundamentals-0}"

tl:dr - the use of numbers is what separates an RPG from an adventure game.

Best RPG On Xbox 360. I should reiterate. And I see u still haven't addressed the actual function of daggerfalls character development( assigning points through leveling, not creation)and how it makes sense rp wise , oh because u can't, because it doesn't. I won't bother quoting me and the other guys posts to prove our point again.. You keep on with your general statements of how its superior and great, without having any reasons to prove why because you've never played it. Enjoy.

Daggerfall had a very good character creation, it's a pity it wasn't used in any other TES game.

See the red text..

The fact you manage to pull out one thing and that is that RPGs is separated by numbers compared to adventure games says more about you then anything else really. Skyrim has a relationship between skills and perks, there is a internal economy allthough not a very good one and you can defeat enemies by using tactics and strategies and skill and combat system does affect the game. In all aspects Skyrim is a RPG, but it could also be labeled a RPG-adventure game as very often RPG games fits the adventure hat also.

I didn't reply to that particular post because you didn't quote me. And reading over it now, i'm not actually sure what you find wrong with the system. Skills should be tied to attributes to some extent. If your physical/mental attributes improve, it makes perfect sense that as a result, you should become slightly more proficient at certain skills, whether you've practiced/used them or not. And vice-versa.

Haha that makes no sense. "Oh I leveled up by killing enough mudcrabs finally, now to level up my alteration and conjure and illision ability at once . Woo hop, I'm a mage now !". Give me a break. Skyrim owns past tes games in how leveling up skills should be distributed and role played(by actually doing them ). If you can't see that, you're a waste of everybody's time.

When did I claim Skyrim wasn't an RPG?

I criticise it for having shallow RPG mechanics, but i'm not one of the people who don't consider it an RPG at all.

*sigh* casual noobs never learn...

You just don't get how RPGs should work. A lot don't. There's no shame in it. Just stick to your dumbed down action-adventure games with basic RPG elements if that's what you enjoy. But don't try and have an opinion on proper RPGs.

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