Dislike for Streamlining : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:18 pm

streamlining is good, but removing customization isn't.
removing mysticism and putting the spells into something else? good, as all those spell trees were nearly the same in one way or another.

removing spears... bad. if you didn't want the spear don't use it. it didn't need its own skill tree it could have went into 2 hand, or one hand or that matter.

Removal of Mysticism is a major lore-[censored].
Mysticism had it's place in the magic system and I would really like if they overhaul skills and return it.
Mysticism would be an additional skill in Magic branch, Unarmored (it would have Athletics/Acrobatics-like perks) would be an additional skill in Stealth branch, and Unarmed would be an additional skill in Combat branch.

Mysticism really was rather pointless. Especially after they gutted it, removing many spells from the school. You eventually reach the point where you might as well just toss the whole thing.

No it wasn't.
That skill was awesome and had it's place.

Excessive/unnecessary streamlining = dumbing down. It's that simple.

Add to that the increased hand-holding, and I really don't think anyone can deny that one of their primary goals with Skyrim was to make it appeal to everyone with a games console, rather than fans of open-world RPGs.

As a result, we have an open-world RPG that's vastly inferior to the ones that came before it.

Not to mention that lot of that hand-holding is totally unnecessary.
Dungeons are so simple you don't even need to look where are you going since you'll get to location you need to be without any problem anyway.
I think that I run into few dungeons which are exceptions, but there's simply too few of them.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:02 am

No it wasn't.
That skill was awesome and had it's place.

I think you missed what I meant.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:15 am

I think you missed what I meant.

Mind explaining it to me?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:45 am

Mind explaining it to me?

It was meant as more of a tongue-in-cheek criticism than a defense of the choice to remove it. Which each game they've been cutting more and more out of that skill. If it had been left in, it would have been a shell of it's former self.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:41 am

Spears
Mysticism
Athleticism(acrobatics/athletics)

Whooo you keep an equal number with each of the three major archetypes and can satisfy a lot of people.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:17 am

Let me paraphrase: "I (the OP) think I could have done a better job making what is arguably the most successful game in the last few years."

No, not at all. Its the job of the community and the fans to critique the game. I don't think anything
I said in the OP suggested I didn't like the game or beleived I could make a better one, but apparently
I was wrong. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to stop an obnoxious troll such as
myself.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:52 am

Not ranting, I just want a discussion about the topic, and I couldn't find any
existing threads. I feel like as the game is polished, it loses content because
features are dropped.

Todd said they didn't put spears and other weapons in
because they wanted to focus on the main fighting styles (Sword and board,
two handed, archery) (which makes one wonder about the half-assed
duel weilding) and we notice that many non-combat skills have been dropped
(athletics, acrobatics) and even those that weren't are relegated to a certain
character type. For example, Speech is in the stealth section of the skills,
even though an honest Knight would also be very articulate and well spoken.
It feels like Beth had cool ideas, like the skill constellations and the perk system,
but kind of forced the rest of the game to fit into these features.

It feels like instead of taking big steps forward in terms of making the game bigger
and mind blowing, they're just smoothing out past TES games. Does anyone
really care for streamlining of the game at all? I'd prefer a deeper experience, even
if its clunky and confusing.

If this game was deep and confusing, nobody would play it apart from maybe 100 people who visit this forum. I wish people would get a grip and stop complaining about the game not being deep enough, games HAD to be packed with unnecessary stuff in the past because they literally had nothing else, no graphics, no combat, nothing apart from stuff to read.

Skyrim has a ton of content and story isn't the only content that has to be included in games these days, but people conveniently forget about this all the time and just moan at whatever everyone else is moaning at, sheep...

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:35 am

If this game was deep and confusing, nobody would play it apart from maybe 100 people who visit this forum. I wish people would get a grip and stop complaining about the game not being deep enough, games HAD to be packed with unnecessary stuff in the past because they literally had nothing else, no graphics, no combat, nothing apart from stuff to read.

Skyrim has a ton of content and story isn't the only content that has to be included in games these days, but people conveniently forget about this all the time and just moan at whatever everyone else is moaning at, sheep...

because graphics and combat are everything...........

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:34 pm

because graphics and combat are everything...........

Try harder at trolling in future, you know I did not say that.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:49 am

If this game was deep and confusing, nobody would play it apart from maybe 100 people who visit this forum. I wish people would get a grip and stop complaining about the game not being deep enough, games HAD to be packed with unnecessary stuff in the past because they literally had nothing else, no graphics, no combat, nothing apart from stuff to read.

Skyrim has a ton of content and story isn't the only content that has to be included in games these days, but people conveniently forget about this all the time and just moan at whatever everyone else is moaning at, sheep...

That's why the goal should be complex, but not complicated. It's much better than simple. Things become simple when you remove options and possibilities while complex allows for more options and possibilities. But that's not the same as complicated, which is just hard to understand or use.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:01 am

Try harder at trolling in future, you know I did not say that.

you basically just did, read your own writing. if you need some help i bolded it for you. :cool:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:41 pm

because graphics and combat are everything...........

But neither is story, or quests.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:14 pm

you basically just did, read your own writing. if you need some help i bolded it for you. :cool:

No, I think you'll find I listed two things as a quick example, so take the sunglasses off because I did NOT say that ok? If all you need is story, why are you playing a game and not reading a book?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:58 am

No, I think you'll find I listed two things as a quick example, so take the sunglasses off because I did NOT say that ok? If all you need is story, why are you playing a game and not reading a book?

lol nice comeback. i do read tho. so i'm way ahead of you. i just simply made a point that graphics and combat don't make up a great game.you need good storylines and questlines as well.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:39 am

That's why the goal should be complex, but not complicated. It's much better than simple. Things become simple when you remove options and possibilities while complex allows for more options and possibilities. But that's not the same as complicated, which is just hard to understand or use.

Wait... what? It's hard to separate complexity from complicated as most puzzles are complex but also complicated. In fact many people enjoy complicated "things" because it normally follows that the "thing" is complex. A camera can be complex and complicated because of the different mechanisms inside the lens and inside the body. The actual way it records images is also somewhat complex and complicated however that's what makes it interesting and fun. Once you understand it you can apply that knowledge to other areas (like eyes for instance which are much more complicated than a camera).

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:08 am

lol nice comeback. i do read tho. so i'm way ahead of you. i just simply made a point that graphics and combat don't make up a great game.you need good storylines and questlines as well.

I know, but more story doesn't = better story, all I ever read on these forums is skyrim needs more story, and a lot of people only say that because they see other people complaining about it and want attention. That was my original point.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:58 am

I know, but more story doesn't = better story, all I ever read on these forums is skyrim needs more story, and a lot of people only say that because they see other people complaining about it and want attention. That was my original point.

im pretty sure people don't just want attention. they know this is an open forum and they want their voices to be heard and they want to state their own opinions on things. just b/c you disagree with them doesn't mean they should just stop talking about it.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:53 am

Okay, this quickly turned into a pretty ranting thread. A few people
got the point, and thank you to those people who stayed reasonable
and on topic. Further clarification:

I very much enjoy Skyrim for what it is. I like menu streamlining,
the items/magic/skills/map navigation is cool, etc, etc. Things that
make the game run smoother are fine, the only reason anybody
would actually want clunky lists is probably 90s nostalgia.

I also love the new combat system (sometimes). Killing moves are
satisfying and perks are cool. But at the same time, killing moves
are limited to melee weapons and I can have 100 in a skill, but if I
don't have any perks it doesn't count for anything.

I do not love that features have been taken out of the game. No
excuse for it. For everyone saying they want to appeal to the casual
gamer, or the mainstream guy, you're probably imagining the dumb
[censored] bag playing COD. The majority of people don't need you to
babysit them, and can manage just fine on their own. Its actually
offensive that they beleive the general public is so ignorant.

On the gaming industry:
There eally is no excuse for it, it just screams sell-out.
It seems like this is a bad time for gaming. The
gaming industry has reached a point where it is vastly popular and
makes tons of money, but the tools to design modern games are still expensive
and out of the reach of the common fan.
Until the tools to design quality games become more commonplace, we'll be stuck
listening to Lady Gaga instead of Modest Mouse.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:35 pm

im pretty sure people don't just want attention. they know this is an open forum and they want their voices to be heard and they want to state their own opinions on things. just b/c you disagree with them doesn't mean they should just stop talking about it.

It's not their opinion though, they are just recycling others opinion, I haven't seem an original opinion on this 'lack of story' problem for a long time. The reason why it's attention seeking is because people don't use one thread, I see 5 of these per day all saying exactly the same thing. This isn't even about whether I disagree, this is about me understanding that bethesda cannot do everything in a game, while others demand the impossible and then saying bethesda doesn't care about their own game because they don't get everything they want. It's ridiculous tbh.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:02 am

Wait... what? It's hard to separate complexity from complicated as most puzzles are complex but also complicated. In fact many people enjoy complicated "things" because it normally follows that the "thing" is complex. A camera can be complex and complicated because of the different mechanisms inside the lens and inside the body. The actual way it records images is also somewhat complex and complicated however that's what makes it interesting and fun. Once you understand it you can apply that knowledge to other areas (like eyes for instance which are much more complicated than a camera).

Yes, it can be hard to separate them, but necessarily the same thing. Sure, both a complex system and a complicated system involve a lot of parts, intricacies, etc. The differences, though, is that a complicated system is difficult to understand, cumbersome, etc. A complex system, on the other hand, is easier to understand and grasp. Both provide variety and options, but one is easier to use than the other.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:51 pm

This isn't even about whether I disagree, this is about me understanding that bethesda cannot do everything in a game,

Classic enabler type comment,it is an attitude like this that let companies slim trim and dumb down games.People just wanted a RPG what they got was a action adventure that is knee deep with little to no consequences for ones actions but it's ok Bethesda can not do everything.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:30 pm

If this game was deep and confusing, nobody would play it apart from maybe 100 people who visit this forum. I wish people would get a grip and stop complaining about the game not being deep enough, games HAD to be packed with unnecessary stuff in the past because they literally had nothing else, no graphics, no combat, nothing apart from stuff to read.

Skyrim has a ton of content and story isn't the only content that has to be included in games these days, but people conveniently forget about this all the time and just moan at whatever everyone else is moaning at, sheep...

wow!

unfortunately, i have a suspicion that you actually feel your post is legitimate and chock full of reason.

and, your use of the term 'sheep' is quite comical.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:55 am

Let me guess... "Morrowind was better"?

Trimming a few skills here and there is a healthy game design practice. If you were one of those guys that complained about Oblivion having Axes under the Blunt skill, you guys have issues and you might want to get that looked into. Because small things like this have very little impact on the game. You can still swing axes, for example. Now the OP mentions Speech being in Stealth and, for him, the word "Stealth" means that his noble knight can't use the skill. They're just words! The skill is still there! What difference does it make? That it won't increase 25% faster like the rest of your combat skills due to Guardian Stones?

It's when you're ripping a game mechanic off completely that becomes more problematic.

Ie: Spell-making, Birthsigns

The fans kinda expect it, you know?

Here's a healthy exercise: Look at all of the last three Elder Scrolls games and compare all the stuff they ADDED since Morrowind. I'm not talking about tweaked features or "fixes". If you can't name at least one thing without being sarcastic, then you're a lost cause.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:18 pm

Yes, it can be hard to separate them, but necessarily the same thing. Sure, both a complex system and a complicated system involve a lot of parts, intricacies, etc. The differences, though, is that a complicated system is difficult to understand, cumbersome, etc. A complex system, on the other hand, is easier to understand and grasp. Both provide variety and options, but one is easier to use than the other.

But at what point does one separate itself from the other? Complex and complicated generally entail the same thing and used interchangeably in common dialogues. What are the chances that this complicated/complex system fails to be grasped by a wide audience? To go a step further what if the audience is just blind to the complexity of the system... unwilling to accept this new system when compared to an older system.

What I'm trying to say is you get out what you put in. Many things are actually deep and complicated, an example of Pokemon. In common usage pokemon is nothing more than a time sink, however for some it holds a much deeper more complicated system. The thing is most don't apply themselves, nor do they actually try to look at the system at anything other than face value.

Ignorance will always destroy complexity because an unwillingness to learn, or accept, allows for an understanding that goes no further than the surface.

EDIT:
To bypass my craziness (I tend to get a little crazy the longer the night progresses) I think the system we have now is somewhat complex, at least more complex than older systems. To me the older systems provided variety in numbers but that never added depth, or layers, it just added more surface area. The newer system is a step in the right direction, trying to expand upon the ideas set in place and really focusing on a select few.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:50 am

Now the OP mentions Speech being in Stealth and, for him, the word "Stealth" means that his noble knight can't use the skill. They're just words! The skill is still there! What difference does it make?

That was just an example of how it seems like the skills were
forced into the three main character archtypes. I was more
concerned with the whole character customization process
being based around this then where the skills were actually
placed.

There are lots of good added features, I think alot of us are
just worried they're going down a dangerous path. Honestly,
there's alot of misplaced hate towards Skyrim. I saw no problem
with the story/quests. You never really had an effect on the world
in any TES game. I feel like the setting/story part of Skyrim is top
notch, especially the beautiful world design.