Or the player could just do like I did in Oblivion (instead of carrying a bunch of repair hammers) and just pick up and use weapons that I found in the dungeon. Think of all those ancient Nordic weapons in the Draugr barrows or Dwemer artifacts in Dwemer ruins, etc. Perhaps not ideal but it would have to do until you could get back and repair your favorite weapon.

On the other hand, I do like your suggestion about degrading the upgrade level over time and use. Not sure how that would work (still need some way to track damage to the weapon) but I could have seen Bethesda doing something like that in Skyrim before re-implementing the old weapon degradation system. If it is ever done however, it will almost certainly fall on modders shoulders to do something like this. It's not like Bethesda could release a DLC "NEW Weapon degradation system!" and expect it to sell well.

Well, those weren't very similar to TES, which has real time, reflex-aim-click controls and full 360 view...so again, TES does not apply as an example of traditional rpg-games. Daggerfall didn't deliver a traditional, tactical, mind-challenging rpg-experience (it delivered a good game experience in other ways), neither did Morrowind or Oblivion, so why is it expected of TES to deliver this?

I don't mind numbers, or micromanagement, if it is connected to the essence of the game. But I don't need a bunch of complex number mechanics in a game which comes down to aiming and properly timing with my mouse. And I have quite clearly explained that whether you attach those numbers to a to-hit roll before damage resolution, or directly to damage resolution makes no difference whatsoever to the end result being down to player skill. Aim and click properly five times with your mouse for 1 hit and 10 damage is EXACTLY the same as aiming and clicking properly five times to score 5 hits for 2 damage each. 10 is 10, I don't see why it is so difficult to understand that those two numbers are the same...but then again, I am one of those 'casual' gamers that need dumbed down things and don't understand, so I guess it is only in my world where those two numbers equal the same sum.

It's like the difference between a turn based strategy game and a real time strategy game. Sure, in both your objective may be same, but the play style is incredibly different. (Also, Sid Mier's Alpha Centauri really really deserves a remake, one of my favorite games of all time!)

Um, the difference is, you *don't* miss in Skyrim. Whereas you may hit or miss with any swing in games like Daggerfall, depending on your character's ability/stats and a certain luck of the roll (which is far more realistic), in Skyrim, everthing hits. You even have to be pretty awful with a bow, not to hit almost every time. So, whereas you may hit once out of five swings for 10 damage in Daggerfall (and it could be 1, or 5, or 15 damage on any given hit, depending on other variable statistical and chance factors built in), with Skyrim, since you never miss, and since there's no variable from hit to hit in how much damage you do, it's always 5 hits for 15 damage each. So instead of maybe getting one good hit out of 5 swings for 10 damage with a char that's not so great with melee weapons, you end up with 5 hits for a guaranteed total of 75 damage, everytime. No sweat. Realistic? Completely not. But that's Skyrim's simplified system.

Yeah, it seems developers ascribe to the same backwards notion. What happens if a character attacked by an enemy and does nothing? What happens if a character takes action against an evemy that is way more powerful? It is pointless to use nonsensicals like the above to rationalize cutting out content from the game world that would have added value to it.

Oh noes! Risk! In a game! Craziness!

Nonsense.

Not realistic? How realistic is it to swing a sword at someone not actively dodging and miss four times in a row, a la Daggerfall? Even I, who have no sword training, would never miss someone standing in front of me with say, a katana. Missing in Skyrim happens when you happen to swing your weapon just as an opponent steps to the side (realistic). And it's very easy to miss with the bow on laterally moving targets, or really distant targets if you get the arc wrong.

As for random damage values, as long as the total damage is balanced for your skill level, then what's the problem? Low skill level, pitiful damage. High skill level, great consistent damage. And we have crits to simulate those really good hits that strike a critical area.

I agree with the sentiment here. As much as I love Skyrim, there are things that should have more consequences, and more opportunities for players to take risks and fail or succeed accordingly.

However, I don't think that weapon degradation would lead to any less number of threads coimplaining about how Beth have "broken the game" because they degraded too quickly/not quickly enough/not quite how the players imagined it might. And that has nothing to do with game design, platform, etc., and everything to do with the way modern consumerism works.

Except that item degradation has nothing to do with risk and everything to do with tedium. Everyone who played Oblivion learned within 2 dungeon/combat-related outings that they needed to carry a sack of repair hammers with them. Then they'd bang on their sword a few times to make it sharp for cutting again. Then they'd continue on their way.

It wasn't "immersion". It wasn't fun. It wasn't necessary.

How awesome would it be if Bethesda released an official tool which would allow you to tweak and set up the "rules" of your game when you create a new character?

Fast Travel - Toggle On/Off
Carry Weight - Increase or decrease item weight, minimum 1
Potions - toggle between instant effect, or over time
Hunger - Penalties for not eating/drinking regularly - On/Off
Sleep - Penalties for not sleeping regularly - On/Off
Mercantile - adjust the rate at which you can buy/sell from NPCs
Armor Degradation - On/Off
Light levels - make "night" or dungeons lighter or darker

Specializing in one of the Combat/Magic/Stealth categories....allowing one category's skills to cap at 100, the others restricted to 75 or 50.


Most of these issues have been addressed by mods in one form or another, but it would be cool to see an official tool.

That's a very peculiar philosophy. Poor or no actions should very much be punished; that's the whole point of games. I think what you meant to say was, if I am punished for not taking a certain action, I should be rewarded if I do take that action. Repair punished you for not doing it (your damage dipped below base), but did not reward you if you did (it only undid the punishment).

It is not Bethesda's job to implement a toggle for an optional feature. If you can't handle the mere presence of the option to fast-travel, get help.

Actually when it comes to quests and affecting the game world, it would be interesting to see a game where you are "punished" - and this isn't really the right word for it - for *not* taking action. For example, you are always given quests to do, with no time limit to do them. In Daggerfall, there were normally quest timers. You could fail quests if you didn't complete them in a set amount of time and your faction standing could lower or whatever.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a "punishment", per se, but just some consequence that hinges on your action or inaction, etc.

What about something like this: Say in Morrowind, if you didn't take up the main quest and complete it in some reasonable amount of time, then some other sap becomes the Nerevarine (Saint Jiub the mighty?) and either saves the day or fails and leaves the task open for you (random chance of either) or even worse, botches it so badly that a bad outcome happens (blight spreads, people die, etc.). I dunno - I guess some people would hate this if they really like the easy-going sandbox style play, but I think it would be interesting.

Sometimes, I think it would be fun to run into another adventurer (npc) on another or the same mission as you "What Mjoll sent you after her weapon, too? Well I'm gonna get it first!" Responses: "Ok, be my guest", "Milkdrinkers first!", "How about we team up and split the reward?", "Not if I kill you, first!!!"

Just some random thoughts.

ITA

In lieu of reworking some of the problems in OB they just threw stuff out completely. I really miss haggling, NPC disposition, attributes and faction politics.


Things were hard to get right and didn't always work perfectly but instead of trying to improve them they just dumped stuff. But it IS possible to get it right, look at NPC disposition and politics in FONV.

Realism wasn't the topic, it was whether the two systems rewarded player skill over character stat and they both do. Being repeatedly hit by a sword and still standing is always unrealistic.

1. There are variables to the damage effect implemented in Skyrim as well, you don't always do the same damage
2. It's not like you swung two or three times in these old systems, over 30-40 swings the variation will statistically average out to very close to the same effect as just having constant hits and damage. If you roll 2 dice, then the probability that the sum of the dice will deviate significantly from the average of 7 is quite high, if you roll 100 dice, then the probability that the sum will deviate from the average is very small.

Well said. It was incredibly tedius. I got into the habit of repairing my gear and then recharging my weapon after every single fight. You had to. Instead of playing the game and having fun, I was doing this incredibly tedius 'housework'. I was not sad at all to see the first removed from Skyrim. I would not mind the second being cut either.

Well, I agree with people using Oblivion as an example of a "tedious" repair system. It just wasn't implemented well in that game. It was probably the worst implementation item degradation of all in TES. It was present in TES before Oblivion, however and I don't remember it ever being that annoying. That said - I still had the option of grabbing a weapon off the ground and using that instead of carrying 50 repair hammers.

Better implementation is always an option as opposed to "this feature isn't much fun; let's just get rid of it entirely."

The only difference in prior TES games was that items didn't degrade quite as fast. It was still a tedious bit of micromanagement.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Even in Oblivion, I still had the option of grabbing a weapon off the ground and using that instead of carrying 50 repair hammers. I felt it forced you to "adapt and overcome." To me that adds an additional challenge which can be fun to some.

Not to mention, that smithing and armor perks would allow for armor/weapons to last much longer between repairs and allow your repair hammers to improve twice as much. IIRC, the getting smithing to 100 would make it possible to use the same repair hammer forever without needing to replace it.

Sure, some could see it is micro management, having to maintain your gear, but how is that any different from an archer character making sure they have ample supply of arrows before going into a dungeon, or any character being supplied with food/potions?

Just wait, in TES:VI, "arrows" will no longer be part of the game and bows will just have infinite ammunition.

Yeah, back in the last century games were just looking for a chance to kick you in the balls. Modern games gently tap your head, if that. I miss being kicked in the balls.

...Propably not the best metaphor


Meh, with the amount of weightless arrows you can get they migth aswell be infinite already.

Where are the masochistic difficulty rebalance mods? I miss FWE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfA9DjdHh6g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOryNyGE7pQ.

I remember that one. And i did finish it. It wasn't easy, but damn it, i did it!

I've also finished Skyrim

Funny how those leeches are more dangerous than Al

Skyrim is an action/adventure game with RPG elements. That's it.

I salute you sir. That initial playthrough is always a beast.

I can beat it in about 15-20 minutes now though. Around 15 if I manage not to die once.