I like the game but I hate they removed acrobatics, running and jumping at the same time and so many other things out of the game.

1. You can turn off the quest arrows. When the NPC say they mark it on your map, take a piece of paper, write you own instructions and turn off the quest arrows.

2. The quests are much more hidden than in Oblivion. The sanguine quest can't even be started unless by chance.

Older games have more depth than newer games, maybe because that was the sole motivator for the games. In fact older RPGs are almost all exactly the same, most ran on the same engine (I'm looking at you Baldur's Gate 1/2, and Icewind Dale 1/2), most ran on the same lore, and the same ruleset. In fact many of the older RPGs that have this amazing depth got it from a totally separate rule system that was basically an emulation on PC. They're cool to look at, but really when you look at what it took for them to make those games it wasn't all that amazing.

As of now games have a lot more diversity, yes shooters like CoD run the same engine from year to year with minor tweaks (sound familiar?) but is it any worse than publishing the same game over an over with minor tweaks to graphics or the ruleset. I think the most interesting thing about older RPGs is that level of love the developers gave it, and I'm not talking about the story, but that most of the voice acting (from my knowledge) was from the staff members. It feels very... natural as they seem to know the role exactly. This may be totally false, and if so I'm fine with that, but it's just nice to kind of hear a voice that doesn't sound like "I was paid to do this".

Anyways I know most people don't like their games changing, they like it the developers to expand on their ideas. But again I make the reference the CoD, is that any different than CoD? Heck you could even throw Mario, and Zelda games in there. Maybe Harvest Moon as well... I love Harvest Moon.

Nope, not really. I don't recall having to use my brain in Morrowind all that much in the first place.

Agreed. Skyrim also added more layers of depth to many other things such as smithing so it definitely doesnt feel dumbed down.

Lol, I guess Beth had it wrong then. They thought Oblivion and Skyrim fans didn't have a brain since they add gps and other hand holding features.

How much brain does it need to figure out that you do not have to use these features? Is it a lot?

more of lacking in quality to its predecessors. Skyrim's guild quest were shorter in number of quest and in overall time in which it took to complete them. Skyrim is still a great game, just not as good as it could have been.

It definitely is, and Bethesda did both.

I'd consider myself a casual gamer (30yr old, just bought PS3 a few months ago, only played COD MW3 and this game) never played any of the other games in the series, but this one does seem to be dumbed down a bit and too easy.

Some thoughts as a newbie:

Good
-graphics are great (although the dungeons are damned dark and annoying when looking for stuff on the ground)
-tons of landscape and dungeon content to explore
-loads of NPCs to interact with and I like the random radiant quests
-Love the thieve's guild and quest line, love the dark brotherhood as well

Bad
-Way too easy to advance skills like smithing, attacking, etc. I'd like to see level restrictions before you can reach X level of skill advancement
-Unique items generally svck
-Finishing the main quest leaves a feeling of ...now what...?
-There really isnt any reason to advance beyond about level 35. At that point you can pretty much kill anything. I'd like to see level restrictions for advanced gear/spells
-alchemy/enchanting is way too easy and exploitable, and generally useless beyond that (i just buy healing potions, and skip everything else). Maybe have failure % of enchanting an item which would destroy the item you are trying to improve, have a % chance of your alchemy potion blowing up when you try making it, destroying all of your ingredients in your inventory/satchel
-some faction quest line seems unfinished. Bards College? Even the Companions quest line seems kinda lame

Levels 1-10 were fun and challenging, 11-20 were basically stockpiling and selling crap from dungeons, 21-30 focused on leveling primary skills, 30+ just charge through anything like a hot knife through butter

The keyword in your statement is "restrictions". Skyrim needs restrictions big time. Replay value of a game needs restrictions among other things. In other games I find myself playing different races just to experience their attributes and whatnot.

I find it not dumbed down, its very complex still, However I do agree they stream lined it somewhat, that said i still consider skyrim to be one of my most favourite games.

Fallout is not on the same level as the Elder Scrolls at least to me its not. I agree with your second point, but it can add to the complexity of an RPG if its done right yes, I wish we had armor degradation back in, but it should degrade based on item quality and how much its used, maybe even have the environment effect degradation.

This forum is an exact representation of Skyrim's playerbase. I myself play 2 hours a week if I'm LUCKY because of work commitments. There are people on this site who have never TOUCHED a TES game before, others who are playing on xbox exclusively, others who think the game is too hard as is. If you read over on page 3, you'll find a casual gamer who does think this game is too easy. I know people who literally cannot see the point of playing Skyrim, because, to quote them "there is no challenge in it". Those people are the definition of Johnny Average.

When Skyrim released, this site's membership went up quite a bit.

That assumption is fair, but not a good one.

If you turn the compass off, you get that, and you don't ever need to look at the magical 3d map.

Plus, I can generally work out where I am using my own memory. This road is the road that leads to Windhelm and Winterhold from Whiterun. This road goes to Windhelm and Riften from Whiterun. This road goes to Riverwood. I'm in the middle of the wilderness, and I know that if I go north from Bonestrewn Crest I'll reach Windhelm. It's not hard to keep track of your own position with accuracy. My biggest issue is navigating an area I don't know without the compass, because I don't bother keeping track of the sun or stars and will end up going north instead of east. I can't really be bothered with celestial navigation if I'm entirely honest. Mostly because I don't know how to do it on Earth.



Anyway, the principle issue for this is that Skyrim is very easy to get into, but then has no further curve of difficulty. Morrowind on the other hand has a very steep learning curve. Neither system is perfect.

the only thing they removed that i didn't like is spell crafting and the cities are too small for me. other then that? huge improvements.

At its busiest, I would see 1,000 or so users on this forum. Even if we make the very kind assumption that the number of people shown as online at any time represented one seventh of the people who are actually "on the forums" over an extended period, that still would account for less than 1% of the people playing Skyrim. And as any good pollster can tell you, when you work with such a small sample size, it's incredibly unreliable (and in polls, this is used to skew results all the time).

So who uses the forums? Average Joe Skyrim players? Probably not, since Average Joe doesn't go on gaming forums. Who does go on gaming forums? Joe Nerdstrom (Hello? Is this thing on?) does. Joe Nerdstrom is usually a little more of an intense gamer than Average Joe, and he's usually much more vocal about his negative opinions. He ends up on gaming forums, because no one can stand putting up with him in real life. His presence on the forums incites Jerry Fangeek (I'm here all night, folks.) to join up as well. Jerry Fangeek is, much like Joe Nerdstrom, a more intense gamer, but unlike Joe Nerdstrom, Jerry Fangeek loves the game in question. He jumps in to loyally defend the game in the face of the wall of negativity pouring out over the forums. These two are joined by Angus McTroll, Johnny Onepost and a cavalcade of other minor players who make up the smallest portion of the forum posters.

Now, why break it down like that? Because with over 7 million units sold, Skyrim's playerbase is going to have far more Average Joes than Joe Nerdstroms or Jerry Fangeeks. So no matter what your opinion is, this forum is a terrible sampling for anything except the most dedicated players (or people who apparently don't play, because the game was that bad).

This would be an incredibly on-to-it and accurate post, if the nineties weren't two decades ago and if that age of computer games weren't behind us. Now Joe Average doesn't have to be in front of his computer being Joe Nerdstrom or Jerry Fangeek to be on a gaming forum. He can go on the game forum and see what is happening in an area he has interest in, in the same manner that he goes on facebook to see what is happening in an area he has interest in. He can do that from the bus, from his classes, from his workplace, on a smart phone. Heck, he can even do it from his grannies, who more likely than not plays computer games every once in a while.

Get on the forums more. Read posts in debates like this, and you'd be surprised where people claim to be from

Oh we agree, there is no way they are on the same level; but the point was that neither one's complexity comes from equipment degradation. I do not see why items are thought to need to degrade as part of the game mechanics... Or if so, why they don't last 20x the duration they usually have in these games. I can understand a leather suit getting so cut up as to be unsafe to use, but if it gets that bad, I don't understand the logic behind repairing it instead of acquiring a new one. Minor repair is a good feature IMO, but regular repair as a mechanic is a bad design choice IMO, as it becomes part of the player routine.

Honestly, this is a very sad way of thinking.
Also, Ken Levine wouldn't agree with you.

This is probably the saddest way of thinking I've seen in a while (not to mention it's stupid).

First, Morrowind is not crappy.
Second, only because I like playing games and am more HC than others doesn't mean I don't have education/career/friends/family.
Well, I don't have education and career yet since I'm still in college, but it's only a matter of time.

Your way of thinking is insulting and stupid (just like casuals are).

Enough with the insults, already! I'm locking this car wreck of a thread before I have to start handing out warnings to elitist snobs on either side who equate how they move their play-people around the screen with some measure of intelligence.