So I'm just wondering if anybody misses the Enclave in NV as much as I do. I really enjoyed **SPOILERS** Arcade Gannon's quest and I am in love with the Gannon Family Tesla Armor! But it just didn't feel like enough to me. I understand that in the previous games they were run out of NV with only a few left in hiding or living normal lives (as normal as it can get in the Wasteland). But I felt like there really needed to be more. Even if it was a small hidden faction like the BoS which brings up a whole different story of how I wanted more of them to lol. But anyways, I would have liked (even if it didn't fit perfectly in the game!) more Enclave whether it was small groups here and there or a hidden bunker. Hopefully we will have a DLC that has more to do with them such as the popular topic of Area 51 or a encounter with them in a different region. But the reason I want more of them is because one of the biggest things I loved about the Fallout series was their whole army/group. I agreed with some of their beliefs and what they were doing including all their propaganda. The whole patriotism feel to them but also like a dictatorship. Well back to you guys. Did you think NV needed a larger story for the Enclave or do you think it wasn't necessary?

I didn't really feel that the Enclave had any business as far west as Nevada unless they stayed in the NORAD command center for 200 years.

Lol that made me chuckle.

dude, they got wiped out, not once, but twice. i found the enclave portion of fnv perfect.
they are no longer exixting as an organization, but you get to meet quite a couple of their ex-members in their new lifes.

I've always loved the premise of the Enclave existing... a shadow government within the United States Federal Government which had prepared for the war, and even encouraged it, knowing that their best chances of preserving Democracy would be by weakening both sides to the point of near destruction, and then sweeping in to mop up what was left of the Commie bastards.

What I didn't like was the way they were represented. I get the xenophobia and everything, but they were literally made to be as Stupid-Evil as possible... rather than having anything resembling a morally gray area beyond what you learn in writing and from a couple of NPCs. It frustrates me.

I want to see a game in which the Enclave exist again... perhaps even showing this 'High Command' which Fallout 3 spoke of... but WITHOUT the stupid black and white "Enclave are Bad Guys" thing. The community spoke. The people who don't HATE the Enclave... hate the way they've been portrayed. So either don't show them again, or show them again in a more reasonable light.

By this point, the extremists leading them have largely gotten themselves killed, I would guess. You're going to see more guys like Colonel Autumn, men willing to do whatever it takes to preserve America, taking control of the various Enclave forces still scattered across the states.


But yes. All that aside, I do miss them... if only because there's no closure for folks who feel like me in the Remnants.

If there's ever a third enclave reunion, it needs to not be a generic bad guy faction.
They've been wiped out twice, but if you listen to ED-E they have bases in the midwest as well as a possible presence still at Navarro. (then again navarro could have been wiped out without that scientist's knowledge)

I think the enclave should be able to come together again, but at the most as powerful as the mojave brotherhood of steel. You might be able to do some quests for them and influence their future- whether they'll go into seclusion and try over hundreds of years to breed an army capable of projecting force like they did in the east and west, or whether they'll pursue a more peaceful, diplomatic path in the wasteland.

I did like how the enclave was presented in vegas, as a few old war vets trying to forget their past, who have to stand up to make a decision.

That was beautiful.

What really bugged me is once you handed ED-E over to the BoS or the FTA (I did BoS only so..) you never know what they learned from him with the whole Poseidon Energy thing as well. I was really peeved about that. >.< Unless like usual I missed something lol.

I hate the Enclave. They're the epitome of runaway government. Besides, they do sadistic experiments and murder anyone who even stands against their plans (Horrigan murdering an old man and his family in Fallout 2 for instance).

The only thing I like about the Enclave is I get to kill them.

it's pretty funny to see how people are taken in by some cheap propaganda, even in a videogame. just put in some flags, some marching music and there you go
the enclave served as an allegory of right wing political organizations who claim to be preservers of freedom and democracy, while in their true nature being downright fascists.
they were pretty much the perversion of the republican party's view of the world.
but for exactly that reason, it's not to hard for me to understand, why there are some folks here wishing for 'softer' enclave ...which people get served in form of the ncr, by the way.





'preserve america', lol. the only thing autumn was willing to preserve was his own ambition for power.
he kills you right off the bat, if you were willing to give him the code to the purifier, just because he deems you as 'useless' afterwards. he seizes the great work of a third person, dedicated to the people, and tries to use it for his own purposes, etc.
you can like the character as much as you want, but, please don't tell us he was a 'good' person. he wasn't AT ALL.

I like the fact that Enclave wasn't in Fallout: New Vegas, because if Enclave would be all over the place it would make victories over them in previous Fallout games meaningless. After being hit as hard as they have been in the previous games, Enclave should be a very small time power in the grand scheme of things.

Maybe Obsidian is trying to replace Enclave with NCR..but you know what, that doesn't work.

I think what Enclave really have a pull on me is the fact they have all the pre-war knowledge and develop upon it. And also like how "EVIL" they are, in fact, if they ever come back I want them to be so evil that they actually accept outsiders and tread them 2nd class. Even better you face them earlier on you only see these 2nd Class army in Combat armour, maybe riding trucks if not on foot ; then later on the Power Armour trooper shows up with their god dam vertibird and new generation of energy weapons.

And then we can have a Civil War in reverse......

I think that's a pretty good point.

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While I think it would be interesting and fun to see the Enclave make a reappearance in future games or even maybe some FO:NV expansion ... I'm a little puzzled as to how anyone could see them as anything other than villainous.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but these are the people who (as others have pointed out in this thread) not only encouraged the idea of a nuclear war but also tried to ensure that the majority of survivors would be among the corporate and political elite. Aren't they also the ones who used a lot of the Vaults as psychological experiments? Didn't they kidnap the entirety of Arroyo and Vault 13 for use in FEV experimentation?

Personally, I would consider the matter fairly well tied up and let bygones be bygones after the fall of Navarro, as the NCR pretty much tried and executed the remaining Enclave higher-ups. However, Autumn and son made all the same mistakes by putting "President" Eden in charge and trying to hijack Project Purity to ... once again ... unleash a mutated (I love the irony of that) strain of the FEV on the Wasteland; this time, via the water supply instead of the jet stream.

I was honestly surprised when I heard that the Enclave wasn't going to be among the major factions in FO:NV. Still, it's understandable to a degree. As JadedWolf said, it would somewhat lessen the victories over the Enclave in the other games.


On the other hand, I think that Skurgebane's joke about the Enclave occupying NORAD would actually be a really good way to explain another Enclave presence springing up in a future game or FO:NV expansion. Another good way would be to have an Enclave bunker near Seattle (being Fallout, we can just have RobCo in place Microsoft, LOL!) even though the thought of that gives me the creeps seeing as I happen to live in the Pacific Northwest.

How could they possibly make the Enclave morally gray? The Enclave helped bring about the end of the world and turned the Vaults, which should have been used to save lives, into a social experiment. How much more evil can they get? The whole premise of the organization is that they're willing to commit genocide, even end the world, to achieve their goals.

Actually, you're off...

While I do like to see people who understand propaganda... I think you misunderstand what the propaganda IS.

What the Enclave are is -not- anything to do with Republican-party ideals, or even conservatism at heart. What they -are- is an extrapolation of the Nationalist state of the United States of America which was entirely prevalent from the 1950's well into the end of Vietnam, when suddenly being an American became something we were all supposed to be ashamed of.

You see, in the 50's, everything was about America... Freedom... and Democracy. It was about the 'greater good' and 'Ask not what your country can do for you'.

The Enclave is the continuation of that mentality. To them, NOTHING is more important than America the 'symbol'. They don't give a damn about America the PEOPLE... because each man, woman, and child is expendable. The end-all goal of the Enclave is the preservation of their way of life... and the destruction of that thing which threatens them and terrifies them so much that they can't sleep at night: Communism.

It was actually for this very reason that they encouraged nuclear war and social experimentation... because they wanted to be prepared for the future they intended to create. Their plans were to annihilate the strength of Communism, while preserving the best and the brightest, that they might rebuild before their foes had a chance to do so and scourge forever from the world that one thing which could stand defiantly against American Imperialism.

As for Colonel Autumn... well, Autumn was just a man. He was a man with a different vision for the Capital Wasteland, in fact. He wanted to kill you not because you had done anything wrong... but because he knew you had every reason to get in his way. Because he knew that letting you live would mean that you would prevent him from carrying out his plans the way he intended to.

He wasn't the one who intended to wipe out the Capital Wasteland... he wanted the Enclave to -OCCUPY- the Capital Wasteland and keep up the appearances which President Eden had been responsible for by providing the people with clean water and a 'military presence'.

Eden was the maniac... and he represents a group which, logically, after TWO systematic defeats MUST be losing sway with the people.


Nobody is going to accuse Autumn of being a 'Good Guy'... but nor is he President Eden... or even Richardson.

The same rings true for many other men and women you encountered on the Oil Derrick. Many of them expressed tendencies towards feeling guilt and horror at the things they were being 'forced' to do by fear of rampant mutation and factional war. In the end, some of them even helped you escape... and the man responsible for the weapon designed to kill all impure stock on the mainland sacrificed himself to ensure that you and your people could escape.

There were shades of grey presented, even then... but they didn't make any real difference to the player until the end of the game.


The Enclave, if they should return, ought to be a faction which has a presence -throughout- the game... one which you can impact just as you might impact any other faction through the doing of quests and favors and the like.

Otherwise, as I said, they really don't need to be back at all if they're going to be cardboard boogiemen.

I agree with those sentiments completely.
In fact, that's sort of what I was expecting if the Enclave had been one of the factions in NV. It would be very interesting to see some sort of revolutionary idealism sweeping through the Enclave while even the "revolutionaries" still try to adhere to the 50's propaganda style thinking that dominates their beliefs. Something along the lines of knowing that they must be doing something wrong but not quite being able to pin down the cause. LOL.

In a lot of ways, the Enclave creeps me out exactly because of their fanatical adherence to an ideal that has its roots in 50's era propaganda. The whole Fallout series is that way, when you think about it. I mean, I love the eerie posters in NV, "Only YOU can prevent corporate espionage." and "Wear your badge. It can save your life."

In FO3, the idea of EyeBots patrolling the Capitol Wasteland broadcasting Eden's messages to "America" were just insanely creepy to me. I shot every single one I came across.

And that's exactly what it is, too... it's this idea that the COUNTRY is greater than the PEOPLE... because it isn't just a country. It's a SYMBOL.

It's what McCarthy-Era/50's Nationalist politics would look like after nuclear Armageddon. Fascist freedom. The power belongs to the people, but the people are represented by the Government... and therefore the power belongs not to the people, but rather to America. It's backwards thinking at its worst... and little more than a step or two behind outright Nazi-party fanaticism.

It wasn't until the 70's that you really saw that mentality being broken away from by the Counter-culture.

Unfortunately for Fallout... that counter-culture never came... or never earned enough support to become anything more than a handful of dirty bums living out in the middle of the wilderness. And so rationality was never forced upon the public mind.

Nobody ever said: "Wait a second... we may not agree with -them-... but the way things are going ain't too hot, right now, either!"

i agree with you to a 100% here. i just don't know how that putting my words off



his vision for the wasteland was ruling it. and to achieve this goal his was willing to do anything, from murdering people to betraying his organization, without any signs ogf remorse, yes.



with the purifier in the hands of a different faction than theirs, autumns dream of ruling the wasteland would have became out of reach. to control the people he knew he had to control the water supply.
he didn't give the slightiest f*** about the people, though.



eden wasn't the maniac. eden was an AI who just executed the maniacal dream of its creators with the ruthless consequence of an emotionless machine.
his inner logic however, made sense.
get rid of all "mutants", and re-populate the earth with "pure-strain' enclave dwellers. since he's practically immortal as a machine, he could easily supervise that process over centuries, and thus fulfill the dream of his organization.





you can't just take some individuals and their actions of a certain faction as an example for the ambiguity of the whole organization. the fact that some members still show signs of an intact moral compass doesn't change anything about the stance of its leadership.
so, going from here i don't quite get how you're justifying your demand for a 'more gray' enclave.

it's been your "preserving america" statement that lead me into assuming this

Or better still bring them back as faction on the brink of total extinction and allow the courier to FINISH THEM once and for all

Hmmm a DLC with several options on how to do it would be great, methods could be traditional high noon shoot em up or Vegas WMD's (there are a few boarded up old shacks around Vegas that Enclave could use as a base). I would like an ending which involves secretly contaminating their gene pool and radiate them to the stage of mutations thus ending that 'master race' mentality.

A dedicated DLC for the Enclave would obviously give them too much of a high profile so it's more likely you would stumble across an unmarked location on the map which just happened to be the last Enclave outpost within a totally different DLC, to find the Legion got there first and all you see are Enclave corpses crucified all over the place. That would be a fiiting end for the Enclave!

Well, that's -exactly- what he intends to do... in the same fashion every red-blooded American Nationalist would.

He doesn't ascribe to the same morals and ethics as you or I or anyone else perceive today... he's a child of the Red Menace Culture... the "America must be strong, and powerful, and pure... and it doesn't matter who stands in the way of that."

I don't get where you're saying he Betrayed the Enclave. Eden betrayed the Enclave. The only people who sided with Eden were the robots he could directly control. I suppose you could -argue- that it just means they're ALL power hungry traitors... but then you'd just be making assumptions of their character, where as every conclusion I have drawn, has been done so based upon a great deal of study of the Enclave culture.

That is to say, I read and listened to everything to the best of my ability, and compared it to my rather strong understanding of American History and Politics.

In the end, you seem so focused on Autumn that you're ignoring the parts where I explain the founding politics behind the Enclave, and why it is that they are such a power-hungry... morally reprehensible group.

It's because they are, quite literally, the embodiment of "The Ends Justifies the Means"... wrapped up in a big old American Flag and Heapy-Bunches of American Pride and Arrogance.


In short: They are the United States of America. In the 50's. Fueled by 160 years of seclusion, paranoia, and Nationalist propaganda.

They are almost exactly the way this country would have turned out if we hadn't been tempered by Vietnam, the Hippies, and the Korean War.

I could really do without them.
If it weren't for Hoover Dam then I wouldn't have wanted BOS in this game either.
They've already been in THREE games now.
Two in which they were a major faction.
For the love of Norman Frempt kill them off for gods sake!

I'd much rather have new interesting factions than rehashing the same old power armor crap.

Hey, hey... I remember debating with you on this for hours and hours back in the day of Fallout 3.

As I recall, it never got anywhere... so I don't think I'll do that again. :laugh:

I like seeing the old factions. I do agree, though, that there definitely need to be some changes in who and what we see. Too much of the same can get boring... but mix in a little variety... and your spice is lifed.

Problems with keep coming up with new faction is that they would eventually run out of combinations and reduced to "you know what, they just bad guys with arbitrary moral greyness and equip with weapons that PC would like to loot".

At least thats what it looks like in The Pitt: those slavers have no connection to anything any where and they were just there so you can kill some time and loot some new gear, superior than "just give you new gear", but rather weak link in (without the collection factory climbing challenge) FO3 I say.

As Colonel Tannanbaum pointed out, the Enclave is what America were back in the 50's, a rather strong symbol as 50's Sci-fi.

The problem is you can't have your cake and eat it too. The previous Fallout games dealing with the Enclave have had epic endings in which you completely destroyed their headquarters and set them back decades. This works once, maybe twice, but not more than that.

If you keep pushing forward the Enclave again and again... It would be like a children's series from our youth such as the Transformers. Autobots save the say once more, until in the next episode the Destructicons will hatch a new plan! And the Enclave, like the Destructicons from the children's cartoon, would become nothing more than a bogeyman faction that no one would take serious anymore. I don't know about you, but I am not really looking forward to any of that...