Enemy finishing moves are unfairbroken : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:26 pm

When you play on master you take double damage, many attacks such as ancient dragons or a power attack from a high level briar heart deal 300dmg. On master thats 600.

What's supposed to happen: raw damage is run past mitigation to get adjusted damage, which is then checked against player's remaining HP when 'rolling' for a kill-cam hit

What actually happens: raw damage is checked against the player's HP when 'rolling' for a kill-cam hit

So until this order of operations is fixed perhaps master level players should simply play on a lower difficulty but use less armor to achieve the same result.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:11 am

So we should add Sweet Chin Music too?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:31 pm

So we should add Sweet Chin Music too?

Sure, kicks would be great for the Monk class.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:14 am

I hate the times when I go into a kill-cam to finish the NPC I'm fighting and it gets interupted somehow. Really loved it when it was interupted and then they kill-cam me right afterwards.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:16 pm

When you play on master you take double damage, many attacks such as ancient dragons or a power attack from a high level briar heart deal 300dmg. On master thats 600.

So until this order of operations is fixed perhaps master level players should simply play on a lower difficulty but use less armor to achieve the same result.

That would just substitute one problem for another, as the main reason we play on Master is that anything less is too easy. Which means we're basically stuck until they fix it, thus the complaints. It would definitely solve the one-shot problem, though, since the chance thereof would be significantly reduced due to opponent damage being lower on lower settings.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:02 pm

So we want toggles for everything now? Get real.

i absolutely want more toggles. you act as if we are oversaturated with them.

the settings options aren't toggles.

toggles are features that effect actual gameplay in substantial ways.

the entire customization and optional gameplay toggles are broken and practically nonexistent in skyrim.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:23 am

I was behind a dragon and slashing him while I had full health and then all of a sudden my guy teleported to the front of the dragon and got swung around for death. I understand that playing on Master with my warrior it probably is possible to get a single hit kill from a crit but I don't know how I get teleported to my death when the dragon is the opposite way from me.

Similar thing happened to a bandit chief. I was at full health and ran up to this bandit who was sitting down he teleported and bashed by head and I was dead instantly. I don't know how he teleported from the chair he was sitting on but it happened.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:23 pm

Yes, it is unfair, all game ai vs human there are quite a lot of unfair. I mean human over ai, it is quite unfair.

All you have on skill and gear selection is usually over power, a normal player at least 100 iq, I doubt ai have 50 iq, see how difficult their path finding ability are? Do they ever consider dodge your attack? See how they stuck when the player jumped onto some unreachable place and shoot arrows. As a player you got tons of ways to fight dirty. Kill moves is the only one way ai able to cheat to you. And don't forget it works both way.

It is your own fault to invest too little maximum health or not heal yourself during battle. I rarely got kill moves from ai, just once over 300 hours and I kill moves ai more than 30% of my total kills. Now who is on the unfair side?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:08 am

When you play on master you take double damage, many attacks such as ancient dragons or a power attack from a high level briar heart deal 300dmg. On master thats 600.

So until this order of operations is fixed perhaps master level players should simply play on a lower difficulty but use less armor to achieve the same result.

The problem with this is that we are unsure of what causes these insta kill cinimatics..
It may be your armor rating or how much life you have... I have no idea..
Playing on lower difficulty with less armor may have the exact same results with the killcam as playing on master with lots of armor.

It is my ONLY complaint about skyrim... Because you can always handicap yourself if the games too easy.. But without the option to toggle this stuff on/off there is NOTHING you can do about it....

An option in the difficulty section to turn enemy killcams on/off would make me love skyrim again.
And options dont hurt anyone.. Because you dont have to use them if you dont want to.
They only bring more joy.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:42 pm

Yes, it is unfair, all game ai vs human there are quite a lot of unfair. I mean human over ai, it is quite unfair. All you have on skill and gear selection is usually over power, a normal player at least 100 iq, I doubt ai have 50 iq, see how difficult their path finding ability are? Do they ever consider dodge your attack? See how they stuck when the player jumped onto some unreachable place and shoot arrows. As a player you got tons of ways to fight dirty. Kill moves is the only one way ai able to cheat to you. And don't forget it works both way. It is your own fault to invest too little maximum health or not heal yourself during battle. I rarely got kill moves from ai, just once over 300 hours and I kill moves ai more than 30% of my total kills. Now who is on the unfair side?

Obviously you cant complain about the killcams because you spend most of your time sitting ontop of rocks out of the enemies reach...
In my custom rules i can only carry 10 arrows and i cant use any projectile spells at all so i dont spend alot of time hiding ontop of stuff and exploiting the ai.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:43 pm

This is actually a case of it not working the way they wanted it to, because the death check occurs at the wrong point in damage calculation.

What's supposed to happen: raw damage is run past mitigation to get adjusted damage, which is then checked against player's remaining HP when 'rolling' for a kill-cam hit

What actually happens: raw damage is checked against the player's HP when 'rolling' for a kill-cam hit

This is especially noticeable on higher difficulties and at higher levels, when the player often has extreme armor ratings and HP in order to survive due to amplified enemy damage. For example: a L40+ Draugr Death Overlord (one of the main culprits) on Master can deal upwards of 800 HP in raw damage per critical strike if wielding a 2H weapon. Now, a player with capped armor (80% physical resistance) will reduce this to 160 HP per such strike, which is eminently survivable for a character of those levels given the usual HP amounts thereof; however, the 'instant-death' check is made before taking mitigation into account, so said character is eating all 800 points instead, which is guaranteed death to all characters save those who engage in extreme HP stacking.

Note that this does not mean that the kill-cam hits themselves are a bad thing, since they really aren't; rather, it means that their flawed implementation has turned them into a bad thing, especially since they lock out the controls for the duration. If either the lockout or the order of operations were corrected the majority of the complaints would disappear, since then there would at least be a chance to react in some manner.

Does this "death check" also lock out the ability to shield bash interrupt? I mean, I could interrupt most of these attacks, particularly with the Quick Reflexes perk, but it doesn't ever seem to let me.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:43 pm

Damage is mitigated on attack, not on connection.

If you aren't already blocking or are in the process of blocking before the attack is made then I believe damage is already mitigated.

It somewhat has to be done that way.

I'm pretty sure with the slow-mo block perk for power attacks, you can block and trigger it, then not block and simply let it hit you...

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:14 pm

Does this "death check" also lock out the ability to shield bash interrupt? I mean, I could interrupt most of these attacks, particularly with the Quick Reflexes perk, but it doesn't ever seem to let me.

Yes, it does. What happens is that if the attack is determined to exceed your HP, then the kill-cam triggers, at which point it locks out the controls. In order to bash them out of it, the bash has to land before the attack does; once it's determined that the attack lands there is no further opportunity to avoid or prevent it, since you're already dead.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:21 pm

Yes, it is unfair, all game ai vs human there are quite a lot of unfair. I mean human over ai, it is quite unfair.

All you have on skill and gear selection is usually over power, a normal player at least 100 iq, I doubt ai have 50 iq, see how difficult their path finding ability are? Do they ever consider dodge your attack? See how they stuck when the player jumped onto some unreachable place and shoot arrows. As a player you got tons of ways to fight dirty. Kill moves is the only one way ai able to cheat to you. And don't forget it works both way.

It is your own fault to invest too little maximum health or not heal yourself during battle. I rarely got kill moves from ai, just once over 300 hours and I kill moves ai more than 30% of my total kills. Now who is on the unfair side?

Are you kidding me?

Anyone who plays on Master difficulty knows how frustrating it is because you basically HAVE TO run around with 90% HP at all times. It turns the game into an absolute potion-spammer and it's severely frustrating to lose when you yourself have done nothing wrong. The only mistake the player makes is letting their health drop to 89% HP, which is the most ridiculous "mistake" I've ever heard. Why bother with HP then? Oh right, I have to because otherwise I'd be a constant one-shot for the kill cams.

Spamming pots to stay above 90% HP is not a skill; it's just tedious and stupid. Blocking before an enemy's swing connects, parrying, dodging, killing them first; those all involve some skill, but these elements are completely absent from the game whenever kill cams come into play.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:41 am

Best solution? Make kill cam's activate upon contact. For both player and NPC.

It's rather unfair for NPCs too.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:34 pm

Best solution? Make kill cam's activate upon contact. For both player and NPC.

It's rather unfair for NPCs too.

I seriously dunno why they didn't do this to begin with.
All they have to do is, after you've been hit and your health is at 0, instead of showing the cutscene of your character falling over and dying, freeze your character first and show a cutscene of a killcam.

It's not rocket science...

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:23 pm

I'm not sure why they didn't do that either; given the mechanics it would appear that they were going for the whole 'sudden strike to a vital area' feel, but unfortunately the way it's implemented doesn't support that.

It's definitely annoying having to keep your health topped off (I use Restoration instead of potions), especially when you're trying to RP a berserker type who uses 2H weapons and has to give up his offense to heal.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:19 am

Are you kidding me?

Anyone who plays on Master difficulty knows how frustrating it is because you basically HAVE TO run around with 90% HP at all times. It turns the game into an absolute potion-spammer and it's severely frustrating to lose when you yourself have done nothing wrong. The only mistake the player makes is letting their health drop to 89% HP, which is the most ridiculous "mistake" I've ever heard. Why bother with HP then? Oh right, I have to because otherwise I'd be a constant one-shot for the kill cams.

Spamming pots to stay above 90% HP is not a skill; it's just tedious and stupid. Blocking before an enemy's swing connects, parrying, dodging, killing them first; those all involve some skill, but these elements are completely absent from the game whenever kill cams come into play.

Did the game force you to play at master level? Do you still need to run around with 90% health when you have 500 maximum health? According to the existing game system, keep being 1 hit kill means either your build problem or your gear problem. There is an option to lower the difficulty, please serve yourself.

That's why many players asked for a kill move toggle, and i like that idea too. When there is toggle kill move then you can just play what ever low health build as you wish, fair enough?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:35 am

I've only had this happen to me once in about 170 hours of play time. It was definitely a 'WTF?!' moment, but it hasn't been a huge issue for me. I'm just glad I wasn't playing a DiD character. I've been playing on normal difficulty, and I'm only at level 41 (I think), so it may just be the difficulty setting that is making this happen more frequently to you.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:47 pm

Did the game force you to play at master level? Do you still need to run around with 90% health when you have 500 maximum health? According to the existing game system, keep being 1 hit kill means either your build problem or your gear problem. There is an option to lower the difficulty, please serve yourself.

That's why many players asked for a kill move toggle, and i like that idea too. When there is toggle kill move then you can just play what ever low health build as you wish, fair enough?

Lowering the difficulty is not the answer, because it doesn't address the faulty mechanic. The problem is not that we're getting one-shot, it's that the means by which it's determined that it happens is using the wrong order of operations, which is negating any and all forms of mitigation.

There's a huge difference between getting one-shot because you screwed up and having it happen because the game decides to randomly screw you over, and the latter is what's happening here. Master level exacerbates the problem, because enemy damage is artificially amplified, but it can happen on almost any difficulty setting due to the faulty mechanic behind it.

The only aspect of gear or build that matters in the slightest here is how many times you decided to increase HP at level-up; this basically results in forced selection, which is considered bad design and nigh-universally panned when discovered.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:54 am

Less toggles. More of Beth's vision.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:59 pm

Did the game force you to play at master level? Do you still need to run around with 90% health when you have 500 maximum health? According to the existing game system, keep being 1 hit kill means either your build problem or your gear problem. There is an option to lower the difficulty, please serve yourself.

That's why many players asked for a kill move toggle, and i like that idea too. When there is toggle kill move then you can just play what ever low health build as you wish, fair enough?

The difficulty is an absolute joke when you are level 25-30. Why should I steamroll everything just so I don't have to suffer a broken job of coding once in a while?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:57 am

Did the game force you to play at master level? Do you still need to run around with 90% health when you have 500 maximum health? According to the existing game system, keep being 1 hit kill means either your build problem or your gear problem. There is an option to lower the difficulty, please serve yourself.

That's why many players asked for a kill move toggle, and i like that idea too. When there is toggle kill move then you can just play what ever low health build as you wish, fair enough?

4 of my 6 levels spent on health is a "low health build?"
And lowering the difficulty isn't a solution either. If I do so then I'm bored because I'm used to Master difficulty; normal won't challenge me anymore. If they'd make a damn toggle or fix how these trigger then everything would be fine.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:36 pm

I think it's amazing.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:14 pm

This is actually a case of it not working the way they wanted it to, because the death check occurs at the wrong point in damage calculation.

What's supposed to happen: raw damage is run past mitigation to get adjusted damage, which is then checked against player's remaining HP when 'rolling' for a kill-cam hit

What actually happens: raw damage is checked against the player's HP when 'rolling' for a kill-cam hit

There is no reason why kill-cam attacks could not account for range, or for armor, or for blocking. What is your basis for the claim that kill-cam hits ignore mitigation for adjusted damage?