Enemy finishing moves are unfairbroken

Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:32 pm

What im talking about is when you have 100% health and you walk up to a npc human and he turns around and starts to swing at you.. Meanwhile your thinking to yourself (Im going to block that attack with my 90 block awesome shield or just simply step backwards and dodge the attack)...

Just then the camera cuts to 3rd person view and you watch your character stand there like an idiot and then get insta killed by a slow attack you could have easilly avoided but the game doesnt let you...

100% health... Not even a scratch on my character... Also wearing deadric armor i might add.


Now there are only 2 enemy types that do insta kill finishers.. And that is humaniod based npc's and dragons.

The problem is that the finishing move cinimatic plays out before the enemies blow hits your character... In fact the enemy just STARTED doing his attack animation and you dont even get time to raise a shield or ANYTHING.. The game just assumes you are going to die...



I play master difficulty and i do not put points into health because the way i play if i put anything into hp i will be overpowered and the game will not be fun..
But i have put some points into hp and raised it to 200 at one point and the finishing moves still were happening to my character...
Its just so frustrating that i have to raise my health to like 500 just to avoid getting the finishing moves done to me every 5 seconds...

So i can either play an overpowered character and be bored because theres no challenge or i can get pissed off because a broken game mechanic keeps happening...


I am aware there are mods for pc that can take off this broken game mechanic but i play xbox so i cant do that...

What i would like to know is if someone knows exactly what makes the finishing moves happen.. If theres an armor theshold % or something that your character has to be above for it not to happen.
Also maybe the developers can fix this crap in the next patch or something.

Because im not the only one suffering from this... Heres more people discussing it on a different site.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/615805-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/61316783?page=2
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zoe
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:36 am

Are we sure that the game doesn't calculate that you wouldn't have had time to avoid or block the blow? Or that even if you did block, the damage is still lethal? Seems like it's not that smart, but who knows?
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Del Arte
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:16 am

Are we sure that the game doesn't calculate that you wouldn't have had time to avoid or block the blow? Or that even if you did block, the damage is still lethal? Seems like it's not that smart, but who knows?

Nah because i can block his hits no problem and take extreamly little damage due to my good shield skill..
And easilly step backwards away from his attack.. Like i said it does the animation before the attack even hits you or gives you a chance to avoid it at all.
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Benjamin Holz
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:09 pm

Nah because i can block his hits no problem and take extreamly little damage due to my good shield skill..
And easilly step backwards away from his attack.. Like i said it does the animation before the attack even hits you or gives you a chance to avoid it at all.

Damage is mitigated on attack, not on connection.

If you aren't already blocking or are in the process of blocking before the attack is made then I believe damage is already mitigated.

It somewhat has to be done that way.
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Isaac Saetern
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:10 am

You see his attack coming in slow motion, and the slowness may be the only thing that gives you time to think about the attack in time to react. You cannot know how fast the attack is moving, rendering moot any claim that you might have been able to do anything about it. Either you anticipate the attack and act accordingly, or you die.

Preparatory animations, such as a weapon held back in a ready-to-strike position, to help you anticipate attacks would be nice. I don't know if any such preparatory animations precede kill animations, or if enemies go straight from I-can't-launch-an-attack-from-this-position to Gee-I-could-launch-an-attack-from-that-position-after-all.
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jadie kell
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:07 pm

To the extent of my knowledge, a finisher can only be performed on a character who is blocking with a shield after he is hit by a weapon.
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Francesca
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:05 pm

To the extent of my knowledge, a finisher can only be performed on a character who is blocking with a shield after he is hit by a weapon.

Absolutely untrue, I have had finishers on me in every conceivable circumstance, and most of them involved no shield. I got executed 5 times today, most of which COULD have been avoided, had the engine not locked out controller input once it determined that I was dead. This isn't a huge deal to me, only a minor annoyance, but it's just stupid and lazy.
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Hazel Sian ogden
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:42 am

Are we sure that the game doesn't calculate that you wouldn't have had time to avoid or block the blow? Or that even if you did block, the damage is still lethal? Seems like it's not that smart, but who knows?
nah he's right... it is totally broken... i remember one time i was sprinting away from a bandit with low health and i got insta killed .... he jumps up and like brings the axe down double handed .... and kilsl me... only problem was... i was 3 feet away from the axe and it never touched me... i was mad as heck My character still played out the animation though. That was super lame because i would have made it away... and i died today from the same thing. i was going to take potions but i was already in an insta kill animation.
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Hannah Barnard
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:56 pm

You see his attack coming in slow motion, and the slowness may be the only thing that gives you time to think about the attack in time to react. You cannot know how fast the attack is moving, rendering moot any claim that you might have been able to do anything about it. Either you anticipate the attack and act accordingly, or you die.

Preparatory animations, such as a weapon held back in a ready-to-strike position, to help you anticipate attacks would be nice. I don't know if any such preparatory animations precede kill animations, or if enemies go straight from I-can't-launch-an-attack-from-this-position to Gee-I-could-launch-an-attack-from-that-position-after-all.
well does your explanation cover the time i got insta killed by a guy when i ran away and he did a double axe swing...thats nice and all... but the axe swing landed about 3 feet behind me but the animation kept going... it never even got close to touching me. i've been run through by guard swords multiple times without actually being on the sword. completely out of range.
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Killer McCracken
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:04 pm

I must mention that Skyrim - or any of TES game - is not an action game.

I mean it IS action oriented, but the action part is not exactly the core of what skyrim is aiming at; it is an RPG with real-time action combat system. It's rather klunky and comes with glitches such as that we talk about in this thread.

It seems rather unnecessary and silly of Beth to even bother creating finisher-move animations that would inevitably cause glitches like this.
For creating gore/decap, you can simply use same method as that of FO3(although - I'd have to admit out that V.A.T.S was a bit glitchy too).
I understand Beth didn't feel FO3 level violence isn't appropriate for Skyrim feel, so you'd only need to adjust the amount of dismember/blood and it'd hit the target.

While I respect Bethesda for delivering great miniature realm(s) in which player may enjoy freeform adventures, I'm rather doubtful about their ability to deliver a truly well polished action game.
And although we're familiar with TES games with decent action elements, we'd all agree(I think) that it is NOT the true essence of what defines TES for what it is.

Consider what it was like back in days of MoronWind; we kept clicking at the invisible box surrounding a rat until the dice(randomly) scored hit.
Try playing Oblivion again for few minutes. You'll notice how klunky it feels. You probably never noticed it before tasting Skyrim(unless you have experience of playing an well-polished action games). Skyrim, I'd like to say, is actually a big step toward better action.

For OP's complaint, I must tell him to go play a bit overpowered. He'd need to raise some armor rating and have HP enchantments on, if that's what it takes to play.
For better polished action game experience and chellenging combat, I'd like to suggest him http://vindictus.nexon.net/default.aspx?action=StartGame.
While I'm not saying this is the best action game out there, I think this is far better polished than Skyrim in combat. I think it may suit the OP's taste a bit better.
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Thema
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:22 pm

You do the exactly the same thing to them. Seems fair in my eyes.
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Kari Depp
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:22 am

IMO kill cams register to early in an attack. It should be fixed. Also I am worried if they NPCs get access to ranged finisher moves, then it will be impossible to avoid.
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LuBiE LoU
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:12 pm

Completely agree, it's so irritating when I can dodge most attacks. I realty hope the new kill cams aren't added to enemies, archer enemies would literally ruin the game.

I believe the killcam is triggered for the player when the damage from your power attack would kill the enemy, even if you attack normally. I imagine it's the same for enemies, so it's triggered on master where essentially they are hitting for 4x damage (master and power attack).
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maya papps
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:19 pm

well does your explanation cover the time i got insta killed by a guy when i ran away and he did a double axe swing...thats nice and all... but the axe swing landed about 3 feet behind me but the animation kept going... it never even got close to touching me. i've been run through by guard swords multiple times without actually being on the sword. completely out of range.
The explanation covers it if the attack began while you were still in range. I haven't noted the problem while I play, but I haven't spent a lot of time in up-close combat either. I do not know what is actually going on. Between a misinterpretation of events by players and an implementation of a nonsensical hit and damage calculation by developers who have no history of doing such things, I would place the higher probability on player error. Before I can even consider that your version of things might be true, I need an explanation that makes sense, and I have not heard of any or thought of any. Maybe a bug? :shrug:
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liz barnes
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:52 pm

It would look kind of silly if the kill cam animations didn't trigger until you were hit. You would get hit and then it would jump to 3rd person view to see the swing all over again as you watch in shame and disgust. Just be insult to injury to me. I don't need instant replay in Skyrim. Would be like a Jean Claude Van Damme movie where they have one kick to the face but they cut, in rapid succesion, that one kick from three different angles to make it look like three strikes. Makes it more actiony I guess.

Not to say that I like it, or any of the kill cam crap. It's just how it is. Don't know how else they would do it.
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James Potter
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:52 pm

Can any pc player confirm if the enemies get destruction/archery kill cams on you? This would be game breaking too if it was the case.
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T. tacks Rims
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:30 pm

I play master difficulty and i do not put points into health because the way i play if i put anything into hp i will be overpowered and the game will not be fun..
But i have put some points into hp and raised it to 200 at one point and the finishing moves still were happening to my character...


This is your problem. I'm confused, why bother wearing deadric armor, and why bother telling us that you have 100% health when these kill blows kick in if any attack is going to instantly kill you? I get playing a certain way can make the game unfun and you need to penalize yourself. I do that myself. I don't see how having a character who is going to be one hit by just about anything is the way to do that. Playing on Master at a high level(which I assume you are based on the 90 block) you need some more health.

You are a good player, I'll give you that. 100-200 health at a high level on master, you have to be doing something right to get past all the deathlords with ebony bows, mages that can dish out 200+ dmg in a single spell, etc.

Enough health to survive a couple hits it your solution.

Now I do agree, kill cams can kick in pretty quick. I haven't had them hitting me thankfully... play dead is dead, but I have seen plenty where I have just hit the trigger and the cam has already kicked in.
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vicki kitterman
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:57 pm

If you get jumped walking down the street but had enough time to get your dukes up and still got your butt handed to you are you gonna scream unfair to the ones who jumped you?( in real life) Point is, the fact that NPC's can one-hit kill cam you is very realistic and a good part of the game IMO, it forces you to think before you act which is great!! I have had my fare share of instant deaths by the hands of NPC's and I love it, I ROFL every time.You just need to get up dust yourself off and try again, if you find that the NPC's are getting you too often the turn the difficulty down a notch or two and try again. Or you can be a masochist like me and enjoy watching yourself die. :devil:
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cosmo valerga
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:15 pm

I too disagree with the use of the third-party cinematics, and mainly because they're just damn irritating. They add no realism to the game, and they make it where you can't perform any last second action, like a word of power (push, or become ethereal) to avoid the attack, in addition to preventing you from blocking. In all actuality, though, if you were about to get bitten in half by a dragon, a shield isn't going to block it, a potion isn't going to heal it, and dragons are big enough where a force push isn't strong enough to blow them away from you. Still, becoming ethereal would prevent them from doing any physical damage at all, so this is, indeed, unfair.

I also understand that the occasional third-party cinematic view is meant to indicate something like a "critical hit" by the attacker that will definitely kill you, and I also think that critical hits like this *should* ignore/bypass Block attempts and some other last second actions depending on the situation (kind of like in DnD, where a critical threat roll ignores defender armor class, saving throws, and maxes out your variable damage), but they shouldn't prevent the player from taking any action at all to avoid being hit when he can clearly see the attacker drawing back/preparing for the attack. Like OP pointed out, your character just stands there like a helpless idiot in these cinematic views for about 2-3 seconds before the blow even connects, even if your character was already moving away when the view changes. I can understand that damage calculation is made at the beginning of the attack, but it should still be capable of *confirming* that you are not ethereal, or that you managed to cancel/mitigate/avoid the attack in the 1-2 seconds prior to the moment of contact. There should be a moment, like maybe 1 second (more or less, depending on the weapon and whatnot) after the initialization of the attack where the combat system actually checks to see if the attack/damage calculation is still valid and modifies it accordingly to prevent things like a blow making contact even when you are out of range. I am pretty sure things like this are already implemented to some extent, but it doesn't help at all if you have to sit there helplessly while your character becomes paralyzed with stupidity, just watching his attacker swing a 40lb greataxe downward to divide his skull in half. The sneak attacks, and various other specialty attacks are one thing, but not an attack that requires a bit of time to perform that an undefeated warrior in real life that has been in hundreds of battles and killed every single opponent could easily predict and avoid.

I too think the third-party critical hit cinematics should be removed. Mostly because they're disorienting, annoying, and completely unrealistic.We'd be foolish to think that Bethesda will actually remove them though, and it's a shame for a game whose developers really tried to make every detail of the game, including the metaphysical/paranormal/mystical stuff like magic, words of power, and dragons, actually seem plausible. Just last night I was laughing hard at how a guard approached me and threatened me with jailtime unless I paid him a bribe to ignore the fact that I had left a weapon lying around on the streets of Whiterun. I thought it hilarious that they included such a minute detail, and totally sweet at the same time.

I look forward to what's going to happen with games in the next 5-10 years. Soon, we are going to start seeing combat systems in games trying to portray material dynamics, the nature of injuries (sort of like in Fallout 3, where a crippled limb slows down movement or makes your shots less accurate) and injury severity realistically. For example, the difference between plate mail and leather armor, and how well they can stop a short sword, instead of watching an axe *handle* (not even the blade, because you were so close to your opponent) go right through your torso and still not cut you in half (implying the handle could cut you in half to begin with). They should also simulate bones, joints, skin, fat, and pain. A chop across your wrist should remove your hand much easier than a chop across the forearm, and when your hand gets cut off, you lose it unless there is a way to get it back. I think details like this will make games *incredibly* fun and will require lots of concentration, preparation, and attention to avoid serious injuries like lost limbs or decapitation. Now don't get me wrong; the level of realism in these combat dynamics should be appropriate to each game, but in the case of TES games, a magic user could re-attach/re-grow flesh, and a warrior ought to still be capable of performing self-surgery/first aid in a safe place to stop bleeding which would reduce HP (which at this point just reflect your will to live) gradually. As your HP reaches zero, you will start to get tunnel vision, blurriness, seeing flashy colors, blindness, hallucinations of enemies and hazards which cause you to flip out and run away (from nothing), and serious hinderances to movement speed, like limping, and confusion (which could be portrayed by gradually blurring out text in your inventory until you can no longer read it, which would indicate that you are very close to death). Imagine if you had to choose in the beginning to be left or right handed, and as long as you use that preferred hand, you get a bonus to your attack (so if it got cut off, you'd have to use the opposite hand, and lose that bonus. Ambidexterity can be represented by dividng that bonus in half and applying each half to both hands, see what I mean?) If both hands got cut off, you would struggle with doing thing like picking up your hands to carry them to a safe place or healer. You can't attack at all, but you can still block, and so on.) Many really fun and cool dynamics will open up for cinematic/emotional/realistic effect when they begin to implement combat systems like what I've been describing. Also, resting and healing shouldn't necessarily have to take as long as in real life, but like I said, the level of realism should be appropriately matched to the game's plot and setting. Games based in the future (without magic) can feature a dose of nanomachines that make their way to the site of the injury and repair it slowly while you continue on (gradually improving your HP and lessening the negative cinematic effects.) Racing games, for example, would be able to feature actual tire temperature, wear, tendency to slip, and the car body can start showing actual damage from collisions, simulating the fibreglass tearing, or the metal crumpling, or your radiator leaking, or your engine overheating, or even the effect on your engine of dropping your muffler (on a regular street car, like in Gran Turismo, not necessarily a race car, again depending on the game), or getting too much dirt/dust/mud in your air filter. Yeah! [censored] like that!

For so much attention to detail throughout this masterly crafted first-person real-time action RPG, however, there are just some things that *blatantly* ignored realism and balanced gameplay dynamics, and the third-party cinematics of "finishing moves" are one of them.
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sarah
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:50 am

If you get jumped walking down the street but had enough time to get your dukes up and still got your butt handed to you are you gonna scream unfair to the ones who jumped you?( in real life) Point is, the fact that NPC's can one-hit kill cam you is very realistic and a good part of the game IMO, it forces you to think before you act which is great!! I have had my fare share of instant deaths by the hands of NPC's and I love it, I ROFL every time.You just need to get up dust yourself off and try again, if you find that the NPC's are getting you too often the turn the difficulty down a notch or two and try again. Or you can be a masochist like me and enjoy watching yourself die. :devil:


I think you are missing the point. Also, using a real-life anology for something that happens in a fantasy game is mind-boggling.

The issue isn't that NPCs can execute cut-scene kill moves; the issue is that they lock out your controls, not allowing you to attempt to dodge or block. I have also read that the engine initiates a kill move BEFORE factoring in damage mitigation. I may have survived some of those executions.
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jasminε
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:18 pm

Yet more complaints about kill cam. Just give us a toggle and have done with it! EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY. - see sig to vote.
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Nymph
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:51 pm

I would also agree. I have had incidents where I have had more than 50% of my health available, but this Bandit Chief decides to kill me instantly. I think the threshold for such moves against the player should be when the character only has 10% of their health left to give players a better chance in combat.

If I was guaranteed that signing a petition for toggling killcams would reach the PS3, then I would sign it in a heartbeat.
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lisa nuttall
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:45 pm

Should there be a toggle to turn em off? Yes. But personally I love em, but like I said, I am a bit of a masochist and I do like the challenge. I play on master every time straight from the start so I guess I've gotten used to NPC's smoken my a$$ on a regular basis, that being said though I have never experienced a kill cam that I would have been able to avoid, they are usually a result of a mistake on my part or me being tooOOoo brave for my own good.
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Bird
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:10 pm

I think you are missing the point. Also, using a real-life anology for something that happens in a fantasy game is mind-boggling.

The issue isn't that NPCs can execute cut-scene kill moves; the issue is that they lock out your controls, not allowing you to attempt to dodge or block. I have also read that the engine initiates a kill move BEFORE factoring in damage mitigation. I may have survived some of those executions.

What I meant was that if you are ready for the attack but still die it's really not that unfair, just means that, that baddie was able to kick your a$$, and like someone said earlier it factors the hit while you where there not as you move away( it should but it doesn't) I've clocked a lot of hours playing this game and have yet experience a instant kill that I didn't earn and by saying I should have survived doesn't necessarily mean you would have, if you have your shield up but you still get smoked that just means that the hit delivered would have killed you no matter what you did. But once again I personally have not experienced any that I didn't earn by making a mistake or misjudging my opponent, in my eye's I got what I deserved and I learned from my mistake and tried again.
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Madison Poo
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:38 pm

What I meant was that if you are ready for the attack but still die it's really not that unfair, just means that, that baddie was able to kick your a$$, and like someone said earlier it factors the hit while you where there not as you move away( it should but it doesn't) I've clocked a lot of hours playing this game and have yet experience a instant kill that I didn't earn and by saying I should have survived doesn't necessarily mean you would have, if you have your shield up but you still get smoked that just means that the hit delivered would have killed you no matter what you did. But once again I personally have not experienced any that I didn't earn by making a mistake or misjudging my opponent, in my eye's I got what I deserved and I learned from my mistake and tried again.

There's more than being already prepared for the attack. There should be absolutely nothing stopping you from performing a fluke move in a panic at the moment right before the finishing move starts (assuming there is no cinematic effect to derp your character).

As I mentioned in my long post above, there should be a moment in the swing of an attack where the precalculated damage has to make a confirmed hit (your "invisible box" must be in attacking range before it finalizes the damage). Having third-person cut scenes just prevents them from doing this, and as a result, you're locked out of controlling your character, even if you were already running away from the attacker. And that's absolutely ridiculous too, because if you are running away from your attacker, the cutscene makes you stop running and stand there, just so the attacker can land a successful blow. That's bullcrap, and just stupid, really. If you managed to shout "become ethereal" in that last second before the attack successfully lands, you could become immune to the damage, but the cutscene prevents it just so the NPC can attack you. I don't think that they should remove critical hits or finishing moves at all, but they should have a damage check like I just described and remove the third-person view that locks you out of your character so you can stand there and get [censored] like a fool.
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LuCY sCoTT
 
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