I have yet to play the civil war questline, I wanted to save it until I had certain modding effects under my control. But the Imperials seem like a disorganised and frustrated bunch, and the Nords like an angry child stomping it's feet over nothing in particular. Nobody seems to give a damn about Talos really.

Kinda funny that despite my intentions, on my first playthrough, I became loyal solely to
And actually, I had no idea what was going on the first time. I just followed Hadvar when he called me and killed the stormcloaks when they attacked. Following the main quest, most soldiers on both sides are pretty openly hostile. I guess that first character was not supposed to get involved in the petty affairs of politics.

Nothing really wrong with that....

At least I suppose Hadvar tried to rectify any injustice by leading you to safety (or trying to) when everything hit the fan.

As a side thought, was I the only selfish person to run through the tunnels and out the other end only to think, as the dragon flew of in the distance: "Oh-oh! What was I thinking. I just ran away and left that kid cowering in amongst the dragon blasts and rubble! I better go back and see if he's ok..." (Not that you had any choice to do it before.) But did you go back straight away, just in case?

Even minor npc's like that can have an effect on some people.

I see many comments saying it was unjust of Hadvar to not protest further, and unjust of the tullius and the captain to just order your execution outright without trial or a defence on your behalf.

But that's just it: they're unjust. This civil war IS NOT pretty. It's NOT clear-cut, formal, or clean. It's dirty, vicious, and injustices are everywhere. They aren't limited to one side. The Stormcloaks too have their share of injustices and attrocities, just as the imperials. You hear them from both sides often. But that's civil war folks. it's like the 30 years war in Germany, which ended in a loss of 1/3 of the Greater German area's population. (killed, fled, displaced).

On the 'Following Orders' bit, that is never an excuse.

Yes, he is a soldier, however at the end of the day his actions are his own. 'I was only following orders' is not a get out of jail free card or pass to commit any atrocity with no need to feel guilt. As a PERSON a soldier (if they have any form of compassion or moral fiber in them) given an order they disagree with, such as killing someone that could very well be totally innocent or at worst has no outstanding crimes you are aware of, will refuse the order and take the stripes for it. Being demoted, a flogging, and in extreme cases being killed themselves. However, that would require a spine and a mindset beyond that of a well groomed slave, and soldiers are broken down and rebuilt for a reason.

I respect soldiers who join an army to defend what they love. But thats not how armies end up, and nor is that the only type they attract. I could not have much less respect for someone who will follow any order, because 'it's their job' or someone is wearing stripes/pips/a badge. It also horrifies me that there are actually people out there today that take pride in such a mindset, as if setting aside decency/goodness/morals for blind obediance is a admirable thing.

However, the group that most of my characters are annoyed at are the Priests/Priestesses of the Eight (and One). They have rolled over and thrown aside Talos, and the Priestess even begins to preach before those who are about to be killed for fighting for what they would not. THAT is truly sickening to any of my characters that have any sort of fith in the Nine. And amusing in the extreme for my Altmer, despite the situation they find themselves in.

Hadvar I will give props in that he 'saves' you when things go bad, and in the end he isnt the one wielding the axe, but I can't forget how he coldly pushes the first corpse off the block as little more than meat. I generally support the Empire over the Stormcloaks, but only for the 'big picture'. In the end one of the Jarls says it best I think, in that Skyrim IS the Empire. The Stromcloaks are not really fighting anything aside fromt heir own kin. In the smallscale however, I find myself wanting nothing to do with any faction in the game except the Bards.

agreed. Atrocities were committed in ww2 by the regular german army (they were the men who filled the Einsatzgruppen) as well as the nazi paramilitary waffen-SS. Following orders is no excuse, with some exceptions.

It was the captain who pushed the headless body off the block, not Hadvar....

absolutely.

But not Hadvar. He was kind and his superior wasn't. That had less effect on me because he was still going to make sure that I made it to the block like a good little soldier.

I was affected more by Ralof's attitude in the cart on the way into town and the instant introduction to the fact that the Imperials were killing a Jarl in the town square like a commoner. It just felt like we were being driven towards the rebels as a part of the story line.

The funny thing is that I'd watched my boyfriend go through the Imperial chain out of old loyalties from other games and so I did the same thing even after following Ralof out of town. It took me three characters before I checked out the Stormcloak chain, and only because I hadn't done it and the character I was playing seemed the best candidate for the job out of irony.

Wait until he's on a machine or something.

I have. Various times. On various toons.

My mistake, its been a few weeks^^ All the more reason to... punish such callousness when the oppertunity arises.

I stick by my general point though, for that was a tiny part of it.

Eh, avoid using the reality part. You must also remember that Nazi Germany was Fascist, & any solider or person who did not join/follow orders was killed on the spot or their family.

I'd have to agree. This isn't the place....

What side do you support?


^ This

yeah i played the first playthrough to fight me as a person, so i saw the legion trying to execute me, so i sided against them. After all i was just coming home to skyrim,

Neither is ignorance of the law. In this case, we don't know if our character is guilty or innocent of anything. We don't know what the law states about executing people arrested during a battlefield situation. We don't have much of a context, though we do know that life is pretty cheap in TES games. Their morality isn't nearly as good as ours. (I admit I have talked about morality regarding Ulfric killing Torygg before, but that's only because the Nords seem to have mixed feelings about the ancient custom that Ulfric invoked).

I don't think we can really get up in their case THAT much over it, given so many unknowns. It's not a great example of a legal system, but all legal systems have flaws and historically older typically had harsher flaws than newer ones. In any case, it isn't like the Stormcloaks are any better about this sort of thing, nor are they any better about torture. So I can't say this stuff in particular sways me.

I will say that Hardvar's reasons for supporting the Empire seemed a lot more sensible to me than the reasons the other guy had for supporting the Stormcloaks.

That's a good point. It was just as barbaric as Ulfric's actions I guess. Never thought about that. Thanks.


The Stormcloaks torture folks too? I always seem to come upon the Imperials/Thalmer torturing. I didn't notice that before. I thought Stormcloaks gave a quick "honorable Nord" death. (Not disagreeing here -I know you have more game experience. Just surprised to hear that. Hadn't noticed before.)

Thanks for all the interesting comments posted here.

Well, I haven't seen them torture anyone yet, but Ulfric has a whole bunch of torture equipment in his dungeon. If he didn't torture, then why would he have it? One should remember that the modern ethical treatment of prisoners isn't something that's really been accepted in TES games in general.

the game starting off with you about to get executed by the imperials really makes you favor ralof and in turn the stormcloaks.

whats rather amusing is that alduin's mission you kill you ultimately saved the dragonborn's life and eventually caused alduin's demise.
it actually reminds me a lot of voldermort's self fufilling prophecy.

this will be the last thing I say about this reality topic here. if you'd like to reply, feel free to private message me.

It was not so much a matter of killing families if they disagreed. By the time the Eastern Front war was just about a year old, almost all the old guard of Germany (the men who had enlisted prior to the start of the war, men who had grown up prior to Nazism's rise, and thus more critical and skeptical of it) were casualties of war. The German replacements were young men who had been raised under the nazi regime, had been bred in it, bathed in it, been taught it, and been flat out indoctrinated. If you track the attrocities over the years, there is a noticable spike around the end of 41 start of 42.

okay, /end reality part.

He didn't build windhelm's castle nor is he the original owner.

Come on, torture equipment isn't built into the walls in a way that doesn't allow their removal. They are made of wood and can be moved or destroyed. The Devs chose to have torture equipment in Ulfric's castle, which indicates that he has people tortured.

Drach, as much as I don't like Ulfric, I have to admit that the presence of torture equipment in an ancient keep does not necessarily mean Ulfric tortures prisoners. It's just too far of a jump without further supporting evidence.

it would be one thing if fresh blood or bloodied bones can be found there, or a corpse. But just the equipment itself simply is not enough.

There are bones around them (and blood on the equipment, but that means a lot less since I don't think unbloodied torture equipment exists in the game). Now that I think about it, I believe when you accuse The Unliving of being the killer, they talk about torturing him. Just dug up my old save before I turned the quest in, so I'll double-check.

Edit: When he's arrested, Jorlief says "make your excuses from the Bloodworks, wizard" I think that makes things pretty clear. Or do we think they call their civilized interrogation rooms "the bloodworks"?

And note, this isn't even torture for information. It's torture to make someone confess to crimes.

I don't know why everyone thinks this is so unlikely. Torture is all over the place in TES games, and even "good" people doing it is far from unheard of.

Hmm I honestly don't think anyone claims it's unlikely. We were merely requesting more proof, and solid proof at that.

The Bloodworks is a definite step in the right direction.