Yes.... even true if I wait an entire week in game. No matter where I approach him (tried this over probably 5 or 6 different toons), the only options are the business about the dragon, and sending me to Baalgruuf. (I'm on PC, don't know if that matters or not.)

As I said, I don't care, and really can't consider it a bug (since so far it seems I'm the only one with the issue!) I've had similar things in every other TES game. Sometimes things are just wonky.

So is the challenge legitimate or not then? If the High King makes the decision that it is, why is it ok for the empire to allow the duel and brand ulfric a murderer when Torygg loses?

You can't make arguments that the king doesn't have a choice because his culture's laws are legitimate, and then say the laws are no longer legitimate when it suits the empire.

QFT. Actually, if the duel was accepted by Torygg, it would in some circumstances have been considered a legal outcome - even if the duel itself was illegal (cf Edwardian England's dueling situation).

I guess I don't play those. Heh.

Ugh, law and order types. Why would you.

Well.... some of us like what we live I guess.

Cecilff2: Maybe because Ulfric used a shout, which I'm guessing wouldn't have been allowed under the terms of the duel. And guards wouldn't have been able to stop it, because it would have happened too fast.

Shouts are allowed. So is magic if you know it. The duel predates back to when every other nord knew how to shout. It was pretty common for kings to know. Edit: As a sidenote, I'm really bummed the college of the voice didn't make it into the game.

But timewise.

Ulfric arrives. He challenges Torygg.
Torygg has to think about the challenge.
Torygg has to accept the challenge.
They have to assume positions and allow people to clear out of the way.
The battle begins
Torygg is knocked off his feet by the shout
Torygg is killed when Ulfric stabs him.
Guards suddenly decide to intervene and call it murder.


They had plenty of time.

Cecilff I respect your views but your argument is invalid since the King states later in the MQ When you see him that He knew Ulfric was going to kill him and also knew he stood no chance.

His culture doesn't give him much of a choice. I can certainly say that aspect of his culture is barbaric and is being cleverly employed by Ulfric for seedy personal gain (killing a guy who can't defend himself or making him look bad are both wins for Ulfric). In an ideal world that aspect of their culture wouldn't exist. However, it does exist and Ulfric uses it in an underhanded manner to position the High King into a no-win scenario where the personal upbringing of the High King and of Nords in general works against him. The fact that it is likely illegal under the laws of the Empire is irrelevent to this point, though quite relevant to the Empire of course.

You seem overly intent on declaring ancient customs into "laws", whereas it would certainly seem they are not laws in the modern era. Ancient beliefs are important to the Nords however, and customs can carry as much weight in the mind as law. I'm sure you can think of many customs we have in the modern day that not following would cause a scandal and severe loss of face, but not be remotely illegal. Thankfully none of them involve refraining from allowing a rival to kill you. I can certainly be disgusted with a fellow that ties to bring back an old custom that is hardly ever used and is quite barbaric -- Ulfric gets no respect from me here.

Again. Why didn't the guards intervene. You're not answering the question. They only intervened when it was obvious Ulfric would've had skyrim secede from the empire.

I took that to mean that he knew that if he did not accept the duel, things would go from bad to worse. Now, leaving the shout out of it entirely, it wouldn't be illogical that Torygg (a younger man, with less "life" lived) would die when dueling Ulfric (a hardened, middle-aged man with a LOT of life on the bad side behind him).

And guys - the guards don't intervene because it's not in their portfolio. They simply follow orders. They probably don't HAVE orders about what to do when the High King accepts a challenge to a duel from one of the Hold Jarls.

Imperial law is not beholden to the jarls whims

1. Kind of hard to force the High King to do something. That's how monarchies work.

2. Getting in the way of a custom to try to stop it isn't as easy as you make out.

I am a little puzzled here. Do you think people only fail to intercede to stop things if they are illegal? I assure you this is certainly not the case by any stretch of the imagination, even for law enforcement.

To put it yet another way, what Ulfric did was exploit a psychological blind spot in Nord culture and used that to kill the High King and get out of the city without being stopped.

I'm pretty sure the police(Secret service in this case) would arrest someone who walks into the white house with a sword and challenges the president to a duel.

If the guards were following nordic tradition instead, they would've sworn service to Ulfric as is their custom.

Hon, the guards may be under Imperial colors, but I would be willing to bet they do NOT have any orders for that sort of incident - AND most if not all of them are NORDS....

*sigh* And PLEASE don't attempt IRL stuff - I like you, but you get really anol when people bring up things that tend to refute your pet viewpoints.

The whole incident just seems rather fishy to me. If the guards were nords that understood the custom, why did they try to have him arrested after the duel? Traditionally, the empire has left the rule of law to the provinces themselves. The empire didn't interfere in Black Marsh or Elsweyr's internal affairs. Nor did it involve itself in Morrowind's. Nor did it involve itself in the Crowns/Forebearers dispute in Hammerfell, or the political feuding of High Rock. Why suddenly decide to impose imperial law now?

Heck, High Rock and Hammerfell destroyed Orsinium without a single concern by the empire.



I didn't bring up IRL until Drach did. Edit: Ah, I rescind that statement, I mistook law enforcement for actual IRL law enforcement.

1. Our culture isn't the culture of the Nords.

2. It's not stated anywhere that defeating a leader through a challenge means you get his position.

3. Relying on an old tradition might buy some time allowing you to do something the law enforcement would otherwise stop immediately, but that doesn't mean it would stop them forever.

You didn't need to follow along. How about simply stating IRL has no bearing on this?

I would guess that what happened was that Aldis all of a sudden realized that things were "out of hand" (in Tullius's probable reaction), and at that point ordered Ulfric arrested.

I dont know...THE EMPIRE IS ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE!! Thalmor, Stormcloaks, War, DRAGONS! Tamriel HAS Literally GONE TO HELL!!!!

ROFL!!! Chicken Little.... "THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!"

Heh.

Unfortunately too little too late. If only they'd had that gumption 150 years earlier.

The "I'm just following orders" defense may have got a bad rap because of Nuremberg trials but it's still a soldier's job to obey orders no matter what they are - you are afterall in a war, not a hug fest.
I did not dislike Hadvar at all, I projected my hate to the Captain. Tullius seemed too excited about Ulfric so he didn't probably care about the other prisoners.
I would have wished I got to kill the Captain later if I followed Hadvar, but I suppose she dies killed by the Dragon.

They did the best they could...Sadly it was not enough...How many people gave been consumed by this era, Good people Like ulfric have been turned to persions of there self, Armed rebellions, The Blades have now Fallen and turned into Genocidal dragonphopics, Nazi elves(I said enough), This is looking really bad.

Oh and for a good speech about being a good soldier listen to this speech, skip to 3:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9hocg_eENk

I don't quite think Hadvar would've approved of that.

Well, it depends on your preconception of your character.

My character isn't a stormcloak, but he is a bastard. The imperial captain was probably responding naturally. I don't dislike or like her. I like Hadvar though.

I think a lot of dialogue fits in with my concept too. For example, when first joining Tullius and Rikke, they kind of already hint at my "resourcefulness", and both think they could make use of me outside the general ranks of soliders. Or if you first talk to Baalgruff, you have an option of being open to him about your criminal past.

People who were pissed off at the imperials probably see their characters as innocents.