Thanks. Feel free to speak about how other NPC's might have influenced you as well as Hadvar, The Imperial Captain (Aka by more colorful names ). and Tullius.

For example what about the poor horse thief. He could have been your adventuring companion until he got an arrow in the ...back.

Then again he could have been alive if he hadn't run...

Honestly, I wanted them all dead from the get-go. Hadvar's weak-sauce, "Sorry buddy, I guess your head's coming off" attitude does him no credit in my eyes. I guess I'll apologize to him too right before I run him through with my blade.

He was just following orders

Yeah I've heard that one before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

I definately do not blame Halvar for following orders. It's something you have to do unless you really got a good reason. Also the general was pretty pre-occupied with Ulfric to be concerned about your character going to the block. Beside both him and the captain can assume you must have been doing 'something' illegal or you wouldn't be crossing the border like you did.

My biggest conflict in the game (now that we are in Spoilers) was being asked to kill the dragon to join the Blades. I mean I thought the Blades were pretty cool, but when they insisted that I kill the dragon for crimes it committed centuries ago... That was just a very hard pill to swallow. I did it in one playthrough just to see the Blades quests, but I really have a hard time really justifying it.

lol that's a good point!

The first time I played Skyrim, I was in awe of the beautiful snowy surrounding, the wagon ride and the cool Nord guys sitting next to me. I knew that we would start out as a prisoner, but that was it. I had no other knowledge of the events that would unfold. I listened to the prisoners, then the guards and I was appalled to see them chopping off this guys head, and shooting the run away in the back.

Where is the justice? Where is the court system? I thought the Imperials were civilized people. I mean, they un-ceremoniously would chop off heads in some god-forsaken town in the Hinterlands of Talos-knows-where?

Anyway, I think the thing that pushed me over the edge was the fact they had nothing on me and still they would condemn me to DEATH! Chop of my head for WHAT? So yea, but in the confusion, I followed Hadvar and then I played for a few levels and was like, psh forget that. I make a true daughter of Skyrim and follow Ralof ALL THE WAY! So, Brigid Keltinga was born LOL

Some of the dialogue at Helgen is panic-inducing, set the mood pretty nicely.

Tullius shouts "Run you idiot!"
Imperials shouting "What's it take to kill this thing?!"

Good to see General Awesome and his League of Extraordinary Idiots have things under control here. Your pack of mages is wildly hurling fire around while your archers do the same with arrows. Neither could hit the ground with a rock. Then again, I doubt Legionnaire boot camp covered dragon sieges. Even so, Hadvar's the only one who seems able to maintain his bearings.

Helgen was actually pretty chaotic to experience, still is, even after I've done it dozens of times.

The start event of the game and the Stormcloak quests didn't raise any feelings in me towards General Tullius. Anyway the Imperial Legion questline made me to hate him. He is impolite man who dishonors the Nords and dishonors even more his enemies. Tullius is a brutal man who didn't give burials to Jarl of Windhelm who died honorable death. Tullius wants just to bring his head to Cyrodiil and put it on a spike.
And after I made Tullius and his legions to win the war he treats me as a [censored]. Everytime after the battle of Windhelm I have walked next to him he says "Get away from me." (Why? I'm Imperial, Legate in Legion, Thane of Solitude and has never committed any crime.)

It does tie in with his arrogant character though. It's interesting how these NPC's can prod us so.


That's funny! I hadn't stopped to think about that until now.

Please, I KNEW the Captain I killed in the keep with Ralof was that [censored] who sent me to the block. Same face, same voice, same armour. Hadvar seems nice enough, but it still pisses me off that he didn't fight harder to counter the Captain's BS order.

It made by Dunmeri emigrant character take everything from Alvor's house and stab him for good measure. Haven't gone back to Whiterun Hold since. But she's neutral in the civil war: currently in Eastmarch, trying to spread Dunmeri propaganda and scaring anyone who gets in the way.

So hadvar was nice? Attempting to put me to death for no apparent reason? Didn't take it too lightly.

I think it is fairly safe to assume they thought you were a Stormcloak since you were captured with Stormcloaks. If you were with Ulfric, then you might be a pretty important one too and they clearly want to kill the leadership to end the rebellion. To me they seem pretty concerned that someone would try to free Ulfric and the others, which is why they don't have a trial or anything elaborate.

I'm not saying I entirely agree, but I do understand where they are coming from. And frankly, if you side with the Stormcloaks you don't really have a leg to stand on here. Ulfric killing the High King is as bad as this or worse. The High King had done nothing wrong, and Ulfric essentially tricked him into a fight he couldn't win using a very ancient custom that clearly doesn't get practiced much if at all.


I wonder how many people would go with the Stormcloaks if their "face" in the beginning said something like:

By the Nine Divines, you're an ugly one. But then, all Orcs are ugly. The most repulsive race in all of Tamriel, really. At least you've got that brutish strength, huh? Must be nice to just rip someone apart like some kind of monster. Oh, but you must be the one Orc weakling, huh? Captured by Imperials. How pathetic. You're going to die here, Orc! You're going to die!

It's funny to think about though.

But I would like to know what that list was, that the Imperials had and why my name wasn't on it? They must have had some inkling that you were not with them if they didn't write your name down.

Because their going to have an accurate list of every member of a rebellion? I'd think not.

You mean the challenge that Torygg could have easily refused. He never tricked him at all. And where were the guards that should have been interrupting this duel if it wasn't acceptable? It only became murder after the imperial puppet lost.

He couldn't have easily refused, that's the whole point. The whole Nord concept of honor and proper behavior is tied up into not refusing challenges like that among other things, even though such combat challenges are quite barbaric. Pay attention to the lore.

This is why Ulfric had to mislead people and not reveal his real reason for seeing the High King, because the way their culture had grown to deal with that barbaric tradition is to avoid meeting face to face. Ulfric had to find a way around that, and did by being misleading about why he was showing up.

It's as easy as saying no. He doesn't lose his status, a moot gets convened to discuss the claim. He'd even remain jarl if for some reason all the jarls had supported Ulfric. And again I ask you, why didn't the guards interfere if this was not acceptable?

Also, you shouldn't call out a regular of the lore forum on lore if you really don't know what you're talking about.

You say Nord traditions barbaric? At least Nords are giving fine burials to their enemies when Imperials puts heads on the spikes on the wall of their Imperial City.

Yeah, a challenge is ALWAYS refusable... unless your in any of the saw movies... or Molag Bal has you trapped.

Oh. I thought it was just the cartload they found at the border with Ulfric. I understand. Thanks.

I'm saying they have some barbaric traditions. Or do you think being able to challenge anyone, including leaders, to a fight to the death to somehow not be barbaric?



Except he'd lose tremendous face. The game and lore make that clear. Ulfric wins either way in that regard, you see. If Torygg said "no", then Ulfric can say the High King ignores tradition and is a coward. It would perhaps be even a more powerful statement than actually killing Torygg like he did.

Are you guys ignoring all the political, social, and cultural ramifications if he said "no" just because it is more convenient for your argument?

The Imperials have some barbaric traditions. Burning dead battle-maidens, for example. And conquering other people's countries.

I think it's barbaric if leaders are not responsible to their people. If they lead you in wrong way you should have a right to challenge them. If that right is taken off it will always cause civil wars.

I'm not saying the Empire is free of barbaric traditions. Not at all. I think they have fewer than the Nords, who generally share the barbaric traditions of the Empire and then have a few of their own.



Certainly we can agree that "might makes right" is a horrible maxim by which to govern, yes? It's barbaric. Similarly, only being able to depose bad rulers with trials by combat is also horrible and barbaric. This leads us to a good argument for democracy or something like it. That said, there's no evidence that Torygg was a bad High King. The most anyone has against him is his pro-Empire speeches, which is a pretty small thing in the grand scheme of things. Remember that before his death, there was no Stormcloak rebellion and the ban on Talos worship was a ban in name only.

It may lead us to that way but after all there's no democracy in the Empire. But the Nord tradition we have in here is at least much better than feodalism and the truth that Empire's leaders have right to do what ever they want - even to choose which beliefs other people can have - and the leaders are fully secured and not responsible to common folk.