The point about Hammerfell is that the Empire sees it's provinces as things to be sold. The Redguards don't matter as much as the Cyrodiils.

It's fine if you support the Empire. Just know that it's an empire.

The empire was going to hand over a large portion of their territory, and then basically abandoned the province when the Imperial City was threatened. Only one general either having some common sense or realizing he'd have mutiny on his hands allowed redguard veterans to remain behind to defend their homes. That's what Skyrim can expect, too, when Cyrodiil's back is against the wall.

You say 'Empire' like it's a bad thing.

It was either let go of Hammerfell, or be forced to fight to liberate every Dominion-occupied city in Cyrodiil and hope they don't invade with a fresh army.

Edit: At the end of the day, the Redguards wanted to fight, the Imperials didn't. It'd be similarly wrong to make the Imperials fight just so the Redguards could. The only way for both to get what they want is to let Hammerfell out of the Empire.

And what's different with Skyrim? Just like Hammerfell, by and large people aren't happy with the white-gold concordact, and by siding with the Stormcloaks and having them win it sends a clear message: We'll keep fighting the Thalmor, even without the Empire. The Nords make as good if not better guerrilla fighters as the Alik'r and Redguard. They are very set in their ways and traditions, and as demonstrated by the banning of Talos, are eager to take up arms when that is challenged.

The only reason more didn't even side with the Stormcloaks is many still had faith in the Empire and wanted to stick with them. With the Empire kicked out, you more roundly have a population against the Aldmeri Dominion, with the backing of Hammerfell to boot. Unless of course those who sided with the Empire side with the Thalmor, which would just go to prove that the Empire and Aldmeri eventually became indistinguishable.

The same couldn't be said with an Empire united in Skyrim, because Hammerfell is still cut from the Empire.

I'm still not getting where everyone is getting this "alliance with Hammerfell" thing. It's speculation at best.

Me either, Haize. Oh, also - I forgot to say that (in ref to the thread title....) I don't love the Legion.... Of course, I ALSO don't love the 'cloaks.

To the legion we swear
And our courage we bear
On the coins that we use
law not to refuse
An idea in your pockets and minds
For across Skyrim the war machine grinds

It's pretty simple reasoning. The Imperials dropped Hammerfell because of their resistance to the Thalmor. Skyrim kicks out the Imperials (if you join the Stormcloaks) for about the same reasons as the Alik'r were dropped by them. In both cases it's a fight against the Aldmeri, both regions want to do what they want to do without enslavement by the high elves, regardless of their differences. And speculation? 95% of this thread is FULL of speculation. This is a far more logical conclusion than all the conspiracy theorists you and celan have batted back and forth over whose really a tool of the Aldmeri, what really happened in Markarth, who can survive with and without the Empire. yadda yadda. The enemy of my enemy sure isn't an Imperial, it's a Red Guard.

Basically, Hammerfell is more likely to aid the Stormcloak Nords then they are to aid the Imperials. Because Skyrim would no longer be part of the Empire (like Hammerfell) and would no longer welcome Aldmeri soldiers (like Hammerfell), and would quickly bring the fight against the Dominion (like.....Hammerfell), rather than live in subservience to the Aldmeri (like the Imperials).

I don't think the redguards are quite as bad ass as some claim them to be. They were able to fight the invasion force in Hammerfell sure, but let's not forget the main AD forces marched on Cyrodiil and were focused there and the Empire pushed them out as well.

I'd be all for the rights of the nords to do what they wish and split from the empire, but the timing of this rebellion is suspect to me, which is why I don't trust Ulfric any further than I can throw him. Not saying I trust the empire all that much anymore either.

I can only hope that you still can help unite the area (Skyrim), no matter what you choose. This is basically what Talos did. He was part of the empire, fought against his fellow Nords trying to rebel in the Reach.. but after they how much ass he kicked, and that he was born with the dragonblood, they pledged their service to him.

Our choice on which side must not make a difference in the big picture. There must be some very large event that is about to happen that will make this entire civil war virtually disappear. Either that or the player using The Elder Scroll caused another Dragon Break and allowed both events to happen at the same time. I'm not sure how else they're going to explain the huge difference in the possible outcome from the choice here..

Maybe killing Alduin will cause a Dragon Break and another Miracle of Peace, thus making the temporary truce permanent.

...with help from Nord and redguard legions.

An alliance with Hammerfell has to happen, but we're talking about Hammerfell also because they provide an example of how the empire now sees its provinces- as barter coin. They're also an example that if you stand and fight the Thalmor and don't give in to their manipulations, you can beat them. The Thalmor are better at the political game than on the battlefield. The empire is trying to play their political game and I don't see that going well.

The human lands are going to have to work together, for sure, but the legion is no longer functioning. They're crippled and flailing. Ulfric didn't set out to be a revolutionary- he refutes that several times in his dialogue- rather he sees it as something that he has to do or Skyrim goes down with the ship, most likely first to keep Cyrodiil afloat. The question is not whether Skyrim fights the Dominion alone or with allies, it's whether Cyrodiil still has the right to be calling the shots for other nations any longer.

Talos' legion of his time was crippled too, his empire a pale reflection of what it once was, his emperor feeble, and the land of his time was rife with regional and civil wars. It's said to be so bad that it's possible that Talos assassinated the emperor himself. Yet, no one talks about the end of the 2nd empire. They talk about the beginning of the third one. Whatever was percieved was changed, because it's priorties changed under new leadership.

Not that I'm trying to convince you that the empire is necessary, but nothing is ever definite. If it was such a clear issue of what to choose, or what is doomed to be forever useless or weak, then there's no point in playing the game. Or even having the game released. They could just write a little book and tell us what happened. Instead, they let you decide. Like an "Elder Scroll", there is no "truth" to anything but your own perceptions.

Then you'd think that Ulfric would've actually legitimately challenged Torygg rather than walk in, say a few lines, and then Shout him to submission before killing him. You might say, "He did challenge Torygg legitimately."

No, he didn't. If Ulfric did, then why would so many different Jarls hate him so much? I understand the Jarl of Whiterun hating him because of political rivalry but what about the other Jarls? Not to mention, why is Ulfric a criminal then?

Uh. I think I'll just leave this one to Celan....

I dont like imperialism, but i hate nords so damn much because they are racists and alot nord npcs have racistic dialogues. Nords remind me of nordicism and nazis. Nords are evil. Nords and high elves think that they are better then other races.

For example Bolund is a http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Stormcloaks, saying to non-Nord characters, "I can't believe we let provincials like you wander Skyrim..."


Skyrim belongs to evryone not for nords only.And i dont like racism, i also dont like how nords look - bretons and imperials have better looking female faces.

This is a pretty good statement. Most of the allegations on the Empire, be them pessimistic and cynical or optimistic and idealistic, are based on speculation. There isn't enough evidence to convince an Imperial supporter that Cyrodiil is falling apart and only exists to drag everyone down to stay afloat, or to convince a Stormcloak supporter that it's still holding together, still able to be brought back to its former glory, and that it's trying to do what's best for the remaining provinces. And neither side will ever want to concede, because that's mean coming to the realization that they've been choosing and championing the wrong side all this time.

And his brother- the one who actually is a Stormcloak- likes outsiders. An attitude he attributes to his time in the rebellion.

Anyway, troll.

Yeah, thanks Serethil. LOL

According to Rikke, "more join his cause every day." So who are these haters? There are jarls loyal to the empire, there are jarls who join the rebellion. It's about half and half.

Ulfric isn't a criminal.

He didn't just shout Torygg to the ground. That is one version the rumor mill is spreading, but Elisif's court mage contradicts it. She's not exactly Ulfric's greatest fan.

In a way, I think the actual Elder Scrolls games themselves are just a clever mechanic of playing out the actual elder scrolls themselves and how they work. They are amorphous. And it'll just make you go insane trying to make sense of everyone's perceptions all at once. The only things that are a common thread in everyone's "reading" of these scrolls are the railroaded events. That there's a civil war, that there's a dragonborn, and...I guess a few other things. Not much else. lol

as far as thebig picture u got 2 things on each side. on the imperial side u got the death of ur emporer so theres a void at the top of the chain of command and they are still trying to decide to fill it. If u go Stormcloak then basically at the end ulfric still isnt High king, they waiting on the moot. So i forsee the Moot either giving the seat to the dragonborn instead OR later they will go into "what that dosier REALLY means" as far as Ulfrics involvement to the Thalmor. We know a good bit that he was an asset because of how he was treated and betrayed by the Empire after the markarth incident and went on to escape or they let him escape without him knowing so he could weaken the empire with a rebellion. Also why the jarls see Ulfric as a criminal is because they see themselves under the laws of the Empire and the duel that Ulfric asked of the king was a Nord tradition in how to challenge a king. the general population would see it as nothing wrong with it so thats why u hear alot of people say that ulfricv shouted the king to death...nothing about a duel or anythign like that so they are downplaying the whoel duel or else the general population would actually see ulfric have a really good claim on the High Seat, more so than anyone the empire put in there.

I can see the merits on both sides of the argument and although I care very little for either side, if/when I do decide to run through the civil war questline I'll more than likely side with the Imperials.

Not because I necessarily feel they did the right things in several situations but moreso because I feel the empire represents the best hope for the defeat of the Aldmeri Dominion.