I was proving that my statement about the Thalmor indirectly supporting the Stormcloaks was true. Of course, then you had to respond to that and start blathering about how the dossier proves nothing.
Riften has alot of Argonians, about as much as Windhelms, and some elves sprinkled in but you don't see any drunk Nords yelling at the 'outsiders' there, do you?
You can learn alot about a man by the company he keeps. These people, who support or are in favor of the Stormcloaks, see Ulfric's cause as a way to get all of the non-nords out of Skyrim. And Ulfric doesn't seem to mind their racist tendencies, even in his own city. What does that tell you?

And don't go telling me about 'bad apples'. I've seen you and plenty of other Stormcloak supporters villify the Empire because of the actions of one captain.

There's no proof.

Riften is also a Stormcloak hold, though hardly an example of good social order either.

This is the irony- the Stormcloaks are supposedly big racists, but it's their holds which have the most non-Nords, and for all their complaining the Dunmer aren't moving to Solitude or Markarth.

That he has more important things to deal with.

I don't vilify the empire because of one captain. The fact that she and Tullius are just cutting off heads is a symptom of the empire's ineffectiveness, but hardly the only one or the most important.

No one corroborates it, even though Ulfric is a hot topic in Skyrim and they could if they wanted. A couple people contradict it on material points. That's enough doubt for me, even if I didn't already discount it because of the source and the obsequious tone.
So?

A lot of modern terminology that's pretty meaningless in this setting. We're talking about Tamriel, where people enslave and slaughter other races in order to gain the upper hand over them.

Is there any in this game? None of the less, it clearly states that the Thalmor want the civil war to continue. The Empire has three whole provinces that can supply them, but the Stormcloaks have only half of Skyrim, and not the half that is flourishing. One can infer that the Thalmor are indirectly supplying the Stormcloaks, especially since any old militia shouldn't have access to so many weapons or siege engines.
The point is all of the racist Nords are drawn to Ulfric's city. Keep in mind that the holds are fairly autonomous and may sometimes have different laws and customs, such as in Markarth where prisoners toil away in the mines. Ulfric is outright ignoring the problems in his own city, which is alienating possible allies.

And about the Dunmer simply moving away, most of them have spent much or all of their lives working and living there. And all of those other cities don't have much room for them, not to mention the bandits that would love to prey on some poor defenseless refugees. For now, they have to stay in the grey quarter and hope for the best.

More likely that he has to get his priorites straight.
Hardly a symptom of the Empire's ineffectiveness. The fact that they captured Ulfric so fast and were just about to execute him is a symbol of the chance of reviving it and that Tullius is a military genius.

And he has a far superior intelligence network. They also are able to learn of an impending Stormcloak attack on Whiterun, and as I recall the reason they went to Korvanjund was because they had intel that the Stormcloaks were certain that the Jagged Crown was there.

Too bad for every Imperial spie laced in the Stormcloak network, there's as many (and very much likely more) Thalmor spies in the Imperial network. And after the war is over and all is said and done, the Thalmor will be the next enemy, and all those years of allowing Thalmor patrols, Thalmor soldiers in Imperial forts, and giving the Thalmor top level access to Imperial strategies and camp information will turn right back around at them. That's not to say there aren't Thalmor spies in with the Stormcloaks, but the current Stormcloak policy even dealing with high elves ensures this is far less an issue.

And really that's what it boils down to.....the Thalmor are the enemy, the Imperials are just an obstacle to the Stormcloaks and the Stormcloaks are just considered a troublesome nuisance to the Imperials who need to uphold their side of the white-gold concordact. Just like how they basically severed Hammerfell from the Empire because Hammerfell actively resists the Thalmor.


I'm with the Alik'r and anyone actively opposing the Thalmor (save for the Blades), and right now, the majority of that is found with the Stormcloaks.

The exact opposite is true if you play the Stormcloak side.

It doesn't matter. Even if it's true, it's irrelevant.
LOL Two. Two racist Nords. Not even Stormcloaks.

More like corrupt and with their balls caught in such a firm grip by the Thalmor that their leadership is no longer effective or legitimate.

Shouldn't have pressed the issue in the first place then.
Let me rephrase that then: the majority of Skyrim's racist Nords sympathize with the Stormcloaks.
Might makes right. The Empire can do whatever the hell they want if they have the power to back it up. Doesn't matter who or how many rebel as long as those revolts are put down and that the leaders are made an example.

TLDR.

This time around I'm joining the Legion. I have a very good reason. The Stormcloaks attack me on sight without provocation. This is the worst kind of discrimination: the kind against me!

I can interrupt one of their field captains telling me I'm trespassing long enough to question him about the Stormcloak cause, but as soon as he's done telling me I should "talk to the man himself", meaning Ulfric, he tells me to beat it before it gets beaten for me. Same with the soldiers. I even spoke to Galmar Stone-Fist and his first question to me was demanding to know why a Redguard would want to fight for Skyrim. Gee, I don't know, Galmar Block-Head, you raise a good point. Just take off the ridiculous bonnet so that I can see it.

I wanted the option to say, "because the Thalmor are terrorizing the populace, and I'm agin that!" I don't care that they are against the belief in Talos. Nothing good ever came from religion anyway. Faith, on the other hand, is mostly harmless, and in that case one god is as efficacious as any other. The Thalmor have made it quite clear that this is a war of religion: the very worst kind of war.

Is the Empire perfect? No. Is it weak and ineffective? For the most part, yes. Is it corrupt? Of course it is! But within it exists the framework of cooperation and unification. Far better to try to improve it from within than to aid its enemies by destroying it wholesale.

And that's why I gave the crown to Tullius. Let the chips fall where they may!

Not quite. The Stormcloaks seem to have an intelligence network of their own but the Imperials don't just match them in every place, but surpass them. Regardless of whose side you play, it was Galmar and the Stormcloaks who located the Jagged Crown, an impressive achievement in Nordic lore and archeology but not in espionage. The Imperials, on the other hand, only knew of it because they learned that the Stormcloaks had located it. Similarly, the Imperials had learned of where Ulfric and his entourage were in Falkreath Hold, enabling them to ambush the Stormcloaks before the Thalmor could prevent it (and I'm certain they would have if they were able). And that's only in Skyrim. The Imperials likely have similar networks throughout Cyrodiil and High Rock. And it's even possible they've got people spying on the Dominion.

Ah, ah, ah. Not so fast. Forgive me for being facetious. The term "racist" is used in Morrowind; the concept is understood in Tamriel as it is in the real world, which means that it is possible to define a character as a "racist" despite that being a relatively modern concept.

Now, why did I bring up Igmund? You use his dialogue as justification for disregarding "The Bear of Markarth"; my point is that Igmund's lines can't be taken as-is because, one, he wasn't the Jarl at the time (and was likely young; Cedran calls him young for a Jarl), and two, he himself is against the Forsworn and thus biased against them. You cannot use one as proof while the Imperial scribe is false. And what if it's the scribe who's true?

You're just making stuff up.

That works both ways.

So imperial scribe whats-his-name is a more reliable source on Ulfric's supposed misdeeds than Igmund who has no particular liking for Ulfric and who's admitting his family's culpability in the Markarth Incident?


Speculation, and it didn't help them before.

You don't give the crown to Tullius, rather to Elisif. Though since she's an empty chair, it does amount to the same thing.

"It didn't help 30 years ago" doesn't count for much, especially given how much things have changed since then.

I could care less about what happened in the past with either side.

All I know is that when the game began, I was about to beheaded by the Imperials for no reason other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time. And without any kind of trial.

That is the main reason why I sided with the Stormcloaks.

Why would I want to side with the group who was just about to kill me for no reason?

We have no idea what has changed since then, except that in Skyrim the empire appears to be bent over and taking it from the Thalmor more than ever. So bent over they're willing to bleed their own people rather than fight the real enemy.

If anyone is at fault for killing those they would rule, it's Ulfric because he started the conflict. The Empire is simply putting down a rebellion of those that willingly chose to fight both their fellow Nords and the Empire.

Edit: Little is the same as before the Great War. For example, everyone now knows that the Thalmor are not only the enemy but a very real threat.

Ulfric followed nordic law. The empire was the one that interfered with it. If they hadn't, skyrim would've held the moot and settled things.

Well that twit in the begining refused to do a moot!

And the Imperials and Imperial-aligned Nords were simply following Imperial Law, something very important and very valid in Solitude since the beginning of the Empire. And if enough of the Jarls actually wanted to put a stop to hostilities and settle it with a moot, they would have done so by now, Imperials or no Imperials. I've never heard of Ulfric appealing to the Jarls for a moot before the Empire is kicked out.

You mean after the imperial Nords tried to seize him for winning a duel that they all (meaning Torygg's court) had agreed was a fair challenge, he refused to give himself up to them?

Yeah, what a twit.

The imperials only follow imperial law when it suits them. That was the lesson of the Markarth Incident, and it was repeated again after the duel with Torygg and with their execution of Roggvir, and if that isn't enough to demonstrate it, then Helgen should put the debate to rest. Imperial law might as well be written on toilet paper. If they had toilet paper in Tamriel.

The funny thing is, I think if Torygg had refused the duel, the empire's influence in skyrim would've still convinced enough jarls to stick with him during the moot.



It's a funny imperial law that allows a duel to go on without interfering and only cries foul when their puppet doesn't win.

Serethil, I completely agree that it's possible to play without knowing the background and there's nothing wrong with that as long as it makes the player happy. However, if you're going to argue about the background on a forum, it's a good idea to know the background.

You know, I totally agree with this 110%. Because I look at it the way my character would. He doesn't know hundreds of years of TES lore. All he knows is that if it wasn't for a dragon attack he and his head would have been seperated by Imperials! End of story.

I now go through and whenever I see an Imperial patrol with a prisoner I kill all of them and loot everything. And I love it.

Well... Torygg when you talk to him says they didn't agree it was a fair challenge. I get the idea it's more "Ulfric walked in and attacked him and said that was the way challenges work," than a proper official duel.