They were dumb enough to attack the Imperial City during the Great War. If they just concentrated on Hammerfell, they would've won.

I don't think it was stupid. After Martin died, the empire was a mess and the elder council was scrambling to find leadership. Instead of rebuilding, there were all kinds of lords and nobles making their petitions, trying to legitimize claims to the throne. Lots of political in-fighting. It's the perfect time to strike a country. It's a miracle that Titus Mede came at the time he did and mustered up whatever fight they had in them. And even then, it wasn't victory. The Blades apparently saw the Thalmor threat before all of this, but couldn't be bothered with. They eventually took it in their own hands (and we know how that ends).

I just don't believe they can. They are basically only half of Skyrim and even if them winning the civil war became cannon, it's still only Skyrim by itself against basically the 2 provinces of Alinor and Valenwood not to mention they would probably get the Khajiit to help them out too. When the great war happened the Empire had Cyrodiil, Skyrim, and Hammerfell and they still lost so Ulfric would need to make some allies if he wants to win against the high elves. I don't see him caring about other provinces if they did manage to get the Thalmor out of skyrim.

As for the second thing, the Thalmor did also get weakened during the war which benefits both sides but as far as I'm concerned a reunited Skyrim along with Cyrodiil would be the best bet for a victory. The ideal situation for me would be if Tullius and Ulfric both pulled their heads from their own asses and allied to get rid of the real threat but that wont happen lol.

Didn't the Thalmor think that Cyrodill was ungaurded or something? It is possible they got a little careless with the scouting and didn't notice all the Legions nearby.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me how four provinces couldn't win the great war but one province, or two, could win the next one. And even if Ulfric wants to take the fight to the Thalmor, what if his Jarls or his people just want to rebuild after the war?

And the Thalmor are in much better shape than everyone else. Most of Cyrodill and Hammerfell are devestated and are still recovering after the war. And Hammerfell, home to the greatest warriors in Tamriel, still took five years before they could agree to a truce with a weakened and demoralized Dominion army. Alinor, Valenwood, and Elsweyr are perfectly fine by comparison.

I doubt that the Thalmor actually planted disinformation in their base. They could have, but there's no evidence suggesting it. The more likely answer is just like the dossier on Esbern, they were the real deal.

That aside, I find General Tullius an interesting example of cultural values dissonance. It's easy to condemn him from a Nordic standpoint. But from an Imperial standpoint he's a pretty decent fellow.

He's a robot. He has no capacity for true racism. Or emotion, for that matter.

Kind of why I like him. Ulfric is too emotional for me.

Yes, because after all.. executing you would be awful. "The Bear of Markarth" tells how Ulfric killed women and children old enough to carry a sword who did not join him in battle. That's a far more heinous crime. Ulfric is a man willing to kill anyone for any reason regardless of age or gender to get what he wants. The Legion may not be much better but that's probably why I didn't choose either side.

Tullius never told anyone to execute you. The captain never asked Tullius if you should be executed. Blame her, not Tullius.

I don't blame anyone really. As far as the opening scenes I look at it as "wrong place, wrong time, oh crap!" . The only reason I don't side with the legion is because I feel they've made some stupid mistakes and have lost their way.

I generally stay away from these threads. The only reason I posted was I came across that book today and after reading it I can't imagine why people would feel Ulfric is worth following. But, everyone goes their own way.

Well, now that I'm not the only one pointing that out, maybe someone will listen. But don't hold your breath....

The presence of the general at the execution and his failure to speak up when you were called to the block is the same as condoning the action, I don't see a difference.

General Tullius was concentrating on berating Ulfric - most likely due to having Elenwen looking over his shoulder. He delegated the "list" to the Captain. Should he have been paying attention? Probably - but if Elenwen was looming over YOU, would YOU have paid that sort of attention? I wouldn't have - I'd have been trying to do as requested about reaming Ulfric while handling looking "authoritative".

To each his own, I love the Empire and think Tullius is a great man. Many conversations with him have provided much insight and has only strengthened my respect for him. I would rather work with the legion over those racist, short sighted, arrogant tools the stormcloaks and their overwhelmingly idiotic leader Ulfric. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that is mine.

Yeah, I bet he had the feeling that Ulfric would be gone as soon as he looked away. You know, the Thalmor wanting him released and all.

Perhaps, but after he's finished scolding Ulfric he walks a bit to the back turns around and stands there while one guy volunteers to go first and does nothing when you're called up. I doubt Elenwen would have been overly concerned if Tullius decided to step in when you are called to the block. Everyone else there was a Stormcloak, they all had on uniforms, but you're in rags, logic would dictate that this person isn't with these Stormcloaks. Tullius might as well have called you to the block himself. I also don't think Tullius was overly concerned with Elenwen looking over his shoulder, he seemed to be handling her just fine as your cart was driven through the gate.

Thing is, there's no real reason for Tullius to have any idea you AREN'T a Stormcloak supporter - yeah, you're not wearing the kit, but a lot of 'cloak supporters are "normal". And of course, there was Lokir the horse thief, who got dead while running - Tullius is like most overseers, really: delegate, do the politic bit, and whatever happens is all good.

A nameless nothing from nowhere - another Lokir in a way - isn't going to cause him to make a huge production out of "WAIT! She's NOT ON THE LIST!" Nah.... never happen. Or if it had happened, of course, there wouldn't be a game beginner, would there?

I'm not saying he really cared what happened to anyone in the cart, I'm just trying to show that saying he never 'ordered' your execution isn't quite accurate. His presence at the affair and failure to do anything is the same as him ordering your death, regardless if he actually uttered the words or not.

That's true in main. But in fine, each person needs to decide for herself how that would affect her interactions with either side in future. My decision is to not interact with either faction at all.

I'm not fond of either side either tbh. I liked the Legion in Morrowind, but didn't care much for it in Oblivion and now in Skyrim.

Yep. My feelings about this game are all wrapped up in the fog of "the game is so amorphous NO ONE KNOWS what it's supposed to be".

I should have these replies copy pasted somewhere to save on carpal tunnel.

Did you read who wrote the book?
Did you read the final paragraph, which tells you who the author is primarily addressing and what his "takeaway point" is?
Did you talk to Jarl Igmund about why he had Ulfric's militia arrested?

If you're wondering why people still support Ulfric despite this book's contents, maybe realize you haven't gotten the full story.

I repeat.... do not believe ANYTHING you read (not to mention anything you hear) in TES games.

I don't find any usefulness in pursuing this. It's completely out of the air, and it doesn't bear on Ulfric's character at all, so I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue. Maybe the Thalmor threw a few rusty axes on a trader's cart. Whatever.

It also has a lot more non-Nords than other places. Simple statistics, and doesn't prove anything. let alone that Ulfric is racist.

Even if that's true, so what? The cause is just. Every army has its bad apples.

Oh, but mister Stormcloak supporter, why ever should we listen to you? You're biased -- which, by your logic, means that you haven't spoken a kernel of truth. Don't assume that every sentence in "The Bear of Markarth" and "The 'Madmen' of the Reach" is utterly wrong because of who wrote it. Besides, if you want bias, anolyze diction and tone -- bias usually doesn't extend to misinformation. Skewed, perhaps, but not wrong enough to be discounted.

Igmund wasn't the Jarl at the time -- his father was. "..his father helped capture Ulfric Stormcloak after the Markarth Incident."

Igmund is both using "we" to mean the government of Markarth, and speaking so as to present the Forsworn as their enemies.

Is Ulfric racist? Maybe not. But he institutionalizes discrimination and practices de jure segregation, and, according to Brunwuulf Free-Winter, victim discounting. Just so we're clear.