And to me that was the true "Magic in Magic". In testing at the altar (Going through scriptures, old tomes, and ancient texts, manipulating the arcane through thought and science), your representing the scientific and tangible side of magic. Making you actually have to think, be creative, imaginative and practical (unless your 'gaming' the system, for lack of better words). Add spell deletion to vanilla ES, and your set. That's the "Magic back in Magic".

To me magic (Specifically SpellCreation) was about using it to RP my character the way that I wanted. If I wanted to sacrifice myself to invoke a Fire Atronach I could simply create a "Fire Damage In Self / Summon Flame Atronach" spell. If I wanted to absorb my enemies souls with fire, "Soul Trap / Fire Damage" was right there.

I can't agree with you guys here. There was nothing so difficult about spell crafting in either morrowind or Oblivion that required any kind of thought. In morrowind it was very easy to creat super powerful spells that could kill an entire dungeon in a single cast. In Oblivion it was not so easy to create such over powered spells, but it was still very easy to create spells that were powerful and well suited to your character. Either way, I never found spell creation to be fun in any way. It felt like every spell I had was just being handed to me for no effort at all. Killed a significant portion of the mage experience for me since I didn't really have a choice but to engage in spell crafting in order to play a mage at the mid-high levels.

As well as I. The removal of SC remove a third of my builds. I used it for RPing beyond even the settings and story that were presented in the game. From making Maomer, to Mediums, Psijics, whatever. Once I RPed a ghost. Using it as if it weren't magic at all, and an "ability" system that decreased fatigue instead of just magicka, etc. I got everything there was to get out of it. Now magic based builds are old after 2-3 builds give or take, since your already starting to reuse effects and tactics in Skyrim.

this has made the most sense of anything ive read on this forum (about the magic system) since Skyrim came out

It isn't difficult to make an OPed, generic, boring spell. But to create something truly unique or inventive, it can. Although I say the representation of it requiring "thought and science", in regards to the altar you make the spells at. I agree that it wasn't hard. That's kind of my point. Its not hard to create spells, or be creative and make something awesome. And even easier to make generic "your all dead" spells or whatever.

I completely disagree. Firstly, making spells or acquiring them and deciding to use them is a *choice*. IF you think spell making is what you say it is, simply don't use it. Being a Mage class is what I play most, spell making was one of the highlights of Daggerfall, Morrowind (especially Morrowind with the multitude of combos that can be made) and Oblivion. Spell making is what had me play those games for many more hours. Taking away that *choice* was a poor decision, IMO. The CK should correct that hopefully. I am not playing Skyrim anymore, because of the lack of certain stats and abilities that were in previous TES releases. Though I lvoe the game and the conversation are more detailed and intersting,e ven RPG aspects totally missing from Oblivion seem to have been put back, but I found the story short and some of the quests unsatisfying and I get disinterested in them when I get halfway though them, but that is me. I still give the game an overall 8.3, because the scenery is exceptional.

To be honest, I re-loaded Oblivion with all of its hi-res texture mods I acquired over the years and many of the tweak mods I made and find that it is still a blast and still the best looking game for diversity of environments (Skyrim is better looking overall for it effects and distant scenery, but not diversity), lifeforms and enemies, just that the characters (NPCs), story are the worst of the series.

I agree with the first part, we need SpellCrafting, etc, etc...

But about the second part... Oblivion is more diverse and storyful than Skyrim? I would say that Skyrim is more diverse and that the "storyfulness" of both is almost the same, Oblivion simple had longer questlines, not better stories. Actually, I think that if you count it, Skyrim has as different environments as Morrowind had.

Sorry to off-topic here, I just cannot let it pass a opportunity to defend Skyrim in the few areas where it deserves (Environment, Game World)

You didn't read my post correctly, I said no such thing about Oblivion regarding its story, actually, quite the opposite. Please go back a read it again, if you care to. Also carefully read what I said about the "diversity of enviroments", as that is the only mention of the word "diversity" and how I expanded on it in my reply.

I have a mage at level 46, 3 of the what 6 magic skills at 100 and mostly filled perk wise.

But I use maybe 3 spells right now. There is no use for others. Heck I dont even cast armor on myself anymore, there is no need.

Alchemy and enchanting have done away with the need for diversity.

Just like smithing has completely done away with wanting to find better equipment. I can make it better.

Dawnstar is a perfect example. Why is my steel longsword (Legendary) 100x better then a daedric/god's sword?!?

In previous TES games spell making wasn't a choice. If you wanted to play as a mage character in the mid to high levels you had to create more powerful spells. Nothing that was sold by vendors was good engough. If there is a choice, fine. I can deal with that. But if the only options we have to improve our spells is through buying them off a vendor or creating them ourselves then there is no reward for acquiring new spells.

This is the consequence of having a system that allows you to create anything you want to and make those things better than what you can find elsewhere. Luckily you can just choose no to use smithing, enchanting, or alchemy in Skyrim. Or you can use them and choose not to spend perks in them. There was no such choice in morrowind or Oblivion, and the only way to acquire spells in Skyrim, for the most part, is to buy them. Very un-fun

Not true, you could buy spells from different guilds and vendors being more powerful based on your level. Spell making was a choice in the TES games, it was not forced on you at all. If I didn't want to make a spell, I didn't have to. But I loved crafting my own personalized spells; Morrowind was the best at this. In Oblivion, you couldn't make powerful spells unless that certain skill (Conjuration, Mysticism, etc) was high enough, as making them wouldn't make a difference anyway, and buying them wouldn't help either. IOWs, you could not make and use a level 100 spell unless your skill level was 100 for the pertaining skill of magic. Even if you met the level criteria, if you made them too powerful, you more than likely didn't have enough Magicka to cast it.

I didn't say that you couldn't buy higher level spells from vendors, I said that they were weak and that you needed to use spell making in order to be viable as a mage at higher levels. Just because there were vendor spells available doesn't mean that spell making wasn't forced on you. But that is really beside the point. I don't want there to be so many spell merchants and spells available through merchants either. Having a choice between just the two is still very unsatisfactory because neither offer any risk vs reward. It's too easy to acquire spells simply by making or buying them and takes alot of the fun out of being a mage.

You said no such thing, even your previous to this post says differently. Firstly, you stated and incorrectly so "In previous TES games spell making wasn't a choice." and one does have a choice, you don't have to use spellmaking. Yet oddly, in that very same post, you indicate you are unsure if there is a choice or not. So, what point are you trying to convey here, because you are still wrong and you said nothing about weak spells with vendors? Spells are natively as powerful as they are as created with the game and being available. You can only use spells if your level is high enough (as I noted with a certain skills of magic, being level 50, 75 or 100) and how much magicka level you have. I can start off at level one in Oblivion, go to a spell vendor and the most powerful spells are already available to buy, but I cannot use them because I am not at the correct level to use them along with having the amount of magicka to be able to cast them.

I can be just a viable a mage without creating my own spells if I want to be, because many of the spells already in game are powerful enough to use. I use Alchemy to make magicka enhancing potions and I can cast some awesome spells that I bought. Your last sentence is that of a subjective matter, as some may not see it that way.

I liked Oblivion's balance. Spellmaking for generic, crummy spells, but some unique ones (like Fingers of the Mountain) that remained uinque and better than you could make.

Wait.. what?!

Have http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1303444-excusion-of-spell-making-a-bad-developing-decision-and-why/, maybe it can change your opinion, maybe not.
In any case, the current system is just awful imo.

Are you kidding me ? There are a good 1514 spells that should (but don't as it is) exist in the game if not more! If we take just 1/5th of that for the master spells and put them into dungeons to be found that's still 300+ spells scattered over a huge world with a good number of them being spells that wouldn't interest you if you were not focusing on the skills they bring or even if they just don't fit your playstyle. I use 3 out of the 5 spell schools in Skyrim so that would be 180 spells I'd use and 120 spells I would not use, and even amongst those 180 a good half of them might be spells my character is not interested in personally. Can you even imagine the tedious implications of going through over a hundred dungeons and places for spells you'd never use ? Can you imagine looking for that one spell that you desired at a given moment ?

There is nothing magical about going to a wiki out of sheer frustration because you can't find what is essentially a needle in a haystack.

And now I'm only speaking as if there was 1 master spell of every kind, only 1 fire master spell of two different ways to cast it, in Skyrim we have 4 different ways to cast a destruction spell, and that would even be 5 if it was possible to cast a destruction spell on yourself, but let's just roll with 4 for now. And then there is frost, and shock, and then we do the same for most other spells and all of a sudden over a hundred turns into hundreds!

No thank you, I'd like my spell making back so that I can reach the full potential of my mage before I finish 100% of all the content in the game. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1302338-a-small-observation-on-the-amount-of-spells-in-the-game/

Magic needs a whole re-make with spell making and this can be achieved without removing the "magic" of finding spells for those that think spell making is cheap. Mages that sell spells could easily specialize in some spells and rather than scouring caves for dusty tomes you could scour the world for master wizards who could pass their knowledge onto you, and there could be NPC's with rumors about said wizards or recent books that mention them. That could easily turn getting new good spells into a "search for your reward" thing and no one forces you to use spell making if you don't want to. Much like no one forces you to abuse smithing if you don't want to abuse it.

That's all.