I think that getting rid of spell making was a good start to improving upon the spell system from Morrowind and Oblivion. Unfortunately, Skyrim failed to complete the process. The purpose of ditching spell making was to make magic feel more "magical" and rewarding. We were supposed to earn our new spells and feel a sense of reward and gratification when we managed to find a new and more powerful one, much the same way we do when we find a new weapon or piece of armor. But since almost every spell is available from a vendor, this sense of reward is still as non-existent as it was when spell making was still around.

The next time around only allow the player access to the most basic level of spells from vendors. That would be any of the Novice level spells in Skyrim. All of the higher level spells should only be available via quest reward, or the occasional find within a dungeon. Other than providing a greater sense of reward, this would help with other aspects of the game at the same time. For one, it would help to fill out quest and plot lines within guilds like the mages guild where acquiring new spells for reward and loot, as well as testing ones skill in magic would make sense. That really doesn't exist at all in the current mages guild in Skyrim, where even having skill in magic is almost unnecessary to begin with.

The great sense of reward that comes with finding a new and unique artifact shouldn't be reserved for just those who use armor and weapons. Making unique and powerful spells that can be found in the depths of the most difficult dungeons is great fun too! This is also true for the more regular spells, just as it is true for the less powerful weapons and armor. All in all, the spell system in Skyrim is a good start to making magic feel more rewarding for spell casters, but it still needs a little more work before it can be a truly rewarding experience to play as a mage.

+1 for you, good Sir.

not being able to make spells crippled the magic system, now all my spells will forever be weak. they also cut the vast majority of spells, not good, not good at all. but adding unique spells would be nice

I agree. The only spells you go out and get are the Master level spells... except that isn't even true. You quest for ONE master level spell, and buy the rest. I agree, I would love to see more unique magic actually out in the world.

the new magic system is dumb.

I stopped reading after " The removal of spell creation was a good start."

The removeal of the magic system is the removal of the backbone of the magic system. It limits our options as mages. It gives us no customization as spell casters. It was our choice to design our spells however we wished them to be. Not everything had to be extremely powerful. I also used magic across all schools. We barely have a magic system now, with a total lack of option stripped down magic schools, and a watered down concept.

I hope they fix it before the next game. I want spell creation and a greater spell variety in the game. There is zero logical reasoning for restricting a class so much.

This doesn't have to be true just because spells can't be crafted. There are many ways to achieve the same result without sacrificing the reward that comes with acquiring new and more powerful spells. This is just an example, but having more than 2 perks related to increasing spell damge is one way to get the same result.

no its not the same result.

Now that I agree with. There definitely needs to be more spells. Hopefully in a DLC or something. Definitely in the next vanilla game.

I agree that we have alot fewer spells now, but that isn't the fault of spell creation not being in. Even Oblivion had alot more pre-made spells than Skyrim does despite having spell creation. We don't need to be able to create spells to have a wide array of spells available to us. Sure, spell creation add a greater level of customization, but it sacrifices entirely any reward for exploration when it comes to finding new spells. That reward is also a very important part of any RPG experience, and the sacrifice just isn't necessary to have a lot of spells and a lot of options.

I wonder how you would feel if they gave us just a few generic weapons and armor and the only way we had to improve upon them was through smithing? Would make dungeons rather pointless wouldn't you agree? It's no different with magic in this case.

the foudnations of being a mage involve making spells, and that provideds some feeling of achevment of being a mage to me (maybe if spell makig became a skill like enchanting [which would also let other archtypes get another skill] it would be better)

Its totally borked.
We really need spellmaking back.
And the effects that were cut.

Yes and no, OP.

I agree with you that, due to the pared-down magic system, finding a new spell is a more remarkable experience than it was before. The tactics for a spell like Chain Lightning is entirely different from Fireball, for example. This was not the case in previous games, where spells were either contact, projectile, or self-cast, with a varying radius of effect. They were all the same, but it was nice being able to finely tune your spell list to your style of play. I greatly enjoyed the use of contact spells that drained HP over time, for example. A spell like that had to be hand-crafted, more often than not. Naming your spells was nice, too, if a bit pointless.

In my opinion, the greatest change in the magic system from Oblivion to Skyrim is one that other smay not consider, namely the fact that you don't have to be a member of the Mage's College to gain new spells or enchant. In Oblivion, I hated having to join the Mage's Guild as an Orc warrior simply because I wanted to enchant things. In Skyrim, it's cool that they finally give you the chance to be an independent mage, seperate from any organization.

I'm not sure if I'd like to see spell creation return, because that would make Skyrim's spells a lot less unique. I was a fun gimmick, but I think I prefer using spells that actually behave differently.

i want all the spells back from daggerfall, making/destroying blacks of land (but this one might be hard in the newer TES games), mark/recall, levitation, and other good spells that were cut

I disagree we still had to buy the spells first then we could create them. It's been that way since Morrowind and probably before that. We also could get more powerful spells. We could buy them then we could make what we wanted to suit our characters. We had several options of spells to buy, and then we could create them. Just like in the other Elder Scrolls games you could find all of your gear and you could also buy most of it. Now in this game you can smith it. What we need is all the old spell types back and spell creation. Then we could have magic back. As it is its just a pitiful foundation, of a system.

I agree with all of this. I have never played daggerfall that sounds interesting.

i have not played daggerfall long, so i could not name all the spells, but there were TONS of them, and we should have a lot more than that because the other magic systems in the lore (akavir has their own that involves earth and air magic, i forgot the third element)

I wish we had tons now. It's things like this that make me question Bethesda at their insane idea to remove all kinds of interesting spell types. Also it does not make sense to the lore because as you mentioned above other continents have their own magics. Look at the Sload they sent over a plague. It just irritates me that the magic system has completely gotten the axe ny friend it really does indeed.

i am no mage, the closest thing to a mage i could possibl be called is a trickster, but i think the magic system needs a drastic overhaul, it is pretty bad when a rogue knows when magic needs to get better

You are wrong about a few things here. We could never find a spell in Morrowind, and there were only two or three in Oblivion which were acquired via quests. But there was no finding spells in Oblivion either. While it is true you could buy your gear from merchants in those games, there were lots of items that could not be found on merchants, and even among those that could be found on merchants, you usually weren't guaranteed to find every item you wanted at any given time. That was never the case with spells, and certainly isn't in Skyrim. The same spells were always available from the same merchants and you could never hope to find anything more interesting in a dungeon or through a quest.

Already people are complaining that smithing is too powerful, making exploring for items completely pointless. Why explore at all if there is no reward? You can already make the best gear yoruself. The same is true here with spells. Having spell creation offers no reward at all to being a mage. Whenever you want a new spell you just go out and buy it from a vendor or make one. That is boring. It is not fun or rewarding.

But this is all beside the point. There is no spell making in Skyrim, yet there is still no reward for being a mage except when acquiring new gear. This should be improved upon so that there is a sense of reward when acquiring new spells.

Well yes that shoes it must be bad. I am always a mage or I have some spell support. This is one of the most lacking magic systems I have ever seen in a game.

I have to agree, Bethesda needs to step up the magic. I only use magic every so often.

I meant by find I meant buy I will edit that.

You could buy the spell then create your desired effect, that was much more rewarding than waiting for your appropriate level for a new spell to unlock. I want options spell creation gives us that. I want for spell effects and types I think we agree on that. In Oblivion there was bunch of items outerwear everywhere that certain merchants had. Morrowind had more unique items so that stands alone.

People are complaining about smithing because they level up and probably get all the perks in it and use it to its fullest extent and complain because they feel its way to powerful. I call it one option, you could also only get a few perks in it or none and not use that tree. I will make a few character builds that will use it and some that will not use it. Some of my characters, will be very skilled in smithing others will not.

Sure, but buying something is just as unrewarding as making it. It is simple and easy to do. It can not compare to working your way past traps, puzzles, and dangerous foes to the end of the dungeon where you finally seize the knew blade/gauntlet that is nothing like what you currently hold or can buy. That sense of reward is non existent in any of the previous TES games, including Skyrim. (when it comes to spells)

I agree that we need lot's more spells and spell effects. Skyrim is woefully lacking in that field, but spell making wouldn't help. What would be the point of diversifying the number of spells, adding in quests and dungeons so that you could acquire them with a sense of satisfaction and reward, only to make them obsolete by crafting the same spell yourself? It would be just like letting someone have the "reward" for finding a new sword in a dungeon only to tell him, "no worries, from now on whenever you want a new and better sword you just make it yourself". That's no fun at all. For any RPG out there a great sense of the enjoyment comes in acquiring new stuff that improves your character. To have it handed to you on a silver platter is not fun.

I completely disagree with you. Taking away spellmaking destroyed the magical feeling of TES. I certainly hope that they bring it back in TES VI.