How can the Aldmeri dominion be so powerful? : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:27 pm

This struck me as odd pls elaborate.
I will also use the correct spelling from now on.TY

Ah, the answer is that it is complicated.

Take for instance a book like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Pig_Children.
This is an in-game book. Yet practically nothing that it says is true, it is all misunderstanding, racism and Imperial geocentric thinking.
Now compare that with a quote from a developer on this forum, who explains the meaning behind something in-game.

What is lore and what is true?
In this case, both are lore, but only the second one is 'true'.
The first one can be seen as a helpful insight into how Imperials view things, while you will never see the second one in-game.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:31 pm

"In what is now known as the Battle of the Red Ring, a battle that will serve as a model for Imperial strategists for generations to come, Titus II divided his forces into three. One army, with the legions from Hammerfell under General Decianus, was hidden in the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Colovian_Highlandsnear http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chorrol. The Aldmeri were unaware that he was no longer in Hammerfell, possibly because the Imperial veterans Decianus had left behind led Lady Arannelya to believe that she still faced an Imperial army. The second army, largely of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal. The main army was commanded by the Emperor himself, and would undertake the main assault of the Imperial City from the north.

On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded.

Titus II led the assault from the north, personally capturing Lord Naarifin. It is rumored the Emperor wielded the famed sword http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Goldbrand, although this has never been officially confirmed by the Imperial government. An attempt by the Aldmeri to break out of the city to the south was blocked by the unbreakable shieldwall of General Jonna's battered legions.

In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated.

Lord Naarifin was kept alive for thirty-three days, hanging from the White-Gold tower. It is not recorded where his body was buried, if it was buried at all. Once source claims he was carried off by a winged http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Daedra on the thirty-fourth day." - UESP - The Great War

They did not "put them into submission"... the Empire retook their land, however both sides were weakened; the signing of the White-Gold Concordat was just as much to save the Dominion as it was the Empire. If the Dominion had "put them into submission" then they would be in control of the empire. I don't think you understand the concept of a Concordat, it holds a mutual benefit for both parties.

Oh, jeez...Someone else who doen't know what they are talking about. The signing of the WGC wasn't a "mutual benefit for both parties"...The WGC is the same exact ultimatum that the Thalmor tried to force of Titus Mede II the first time, right before the Great War. When Mede II signed the WGC, his strongest ally, Hammerfell, was dropped from the Imperial alliance. This instantly destroyed relations between Cyrodiil and Hammerfell...which means the Empire is even weaker than it was before the war started and they are now down one more ally. Hammerfell was one of the Empire's last hopes tin defeating the Thalmor...which is exactly one of the reasons why the Aldmeri Dominion wanted Cyrodiil to lose Hammerfell as an ally in the first place.

In other words, when Mede II signed the WGC, he basically handed Hammerfell over to the Thalmor and lost the trust of the Redguards. Political relations between these nations are forever marred. Mede's decision will also serve as a warning his other allies that the Empire cannot be trusted. He's already turned on Hammerfell...so what's stopping the Empire from betraying the other nations as well? This is the type of 'conspiracy' that the Thalmor planned on developing between the remaining nations of the Imperial alliance once the WGC was signed...No one can fully trust the Empire and the Empire's relationships with it's former allies are possibly severed forever.

The signing of the WGC was beneficial to both sides in terms of letting the armies regroup and rebuild...but was infinitly more benficial to the Thalmor in the long run. As of right now, the Empire has no means of rising up against them.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:28 pm

The plan is to uncoil the dragon. To do that they must destabilise the pillars that hold the world up.
Talos, being the mirror-brother of Lorkhan is a fortification, an affirmation, of Creation.
The plan is to kill all humans, and become gods.

I've heard that a few times, but never seen it said in canon anywhere. It's possible that such a lofty goal is just a justification for their authoritarianism. Also, do they need to actually destroy Mundus to escape? I've also heard that all the gods are really just overgrown ancestor spirit, that Talos is in fact a Daedra (consider the inherently evil nature of the heart of lorkhan - that should tell you a few things about it's true nature). But then you have Shor, which seems to have been an independent entity from Lorkhan, which further seems to support the 'overgrown ancestor spirit' theory.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Oh, jeez...Someone else who doen't know what they are talking about. The signing of the WGC wasn't a "mutual benefit for both parties"...The WGC is the same exact ultimatum that the Thalmor tried to force of Titus Mede II the first time, right before the Great War. When Mede II signed the WGC, his strongest ally, Hammerfell, was dropped from the Imperial alliance. This instantly destroyed relations between Cyrodiil and Hammerfell...which means the Empire is even weaker than it was before the war started and they are now down one more ally. Hammerfell was one of the Empire's last hopes tin defeating the Thalmor...which is exactly one of the reasons why the Aldmeri Dominion wanted Cyrodiil to lose Hammerfell as an ally in the first place.

In other words, when Mede II signed the WGC, he basically handed Hammerfell over to the Thalmor and lost the trust of the Redguards. Political relations between these these nations or forever marred. Mede's decision will also serve as a warning his other allies that the Empire cannot be trusted. He's already turned on Hammerfell...so what's stopping the Empire from betraying the other nations as well? This is the type of 'conspiracy' that the Thalmor planned on developing between the remaining nations of the Imperial alliance once the WGC was signed...No one can fully trust the Empire and the Empire's relationships with his it's former allies are possibly severed forever.

The signing of the WGC was beneficial to both sides in terms of letting the armies regroup and rebuild...but was infinitly more benficial to the Thalmor in the long run. As of right now, the Empire has no means of rising up against them.

Yes all of this is true.

No one can stand against the Dominion at this poin t and time the are the most powerful force in Tamriel right now. The White Gold Concordant was basically Mede II giving in to the Thalmors wishes.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:04 pm

Basically magic. Imagine magic to be the gun of the Elder Scrolls Universe. It's a major trump card as using magic powers, you can manipulate the very fabric of space and time. It seems to me that since Elves are natural magic users...yeah.

Imagine this:

The Empire loses ten men for every twenty Aldmeri Dominion Foot soldiers. But the wizards are used as the special troopers and they bring back all twenty foot soldiers as thralls. Then obviously the kill count for both sides are even. But then the wizards bombards the legionaries with their spells while Legion Mages can't compete against the Mages on their side.

Basically, to beat the Thalmor, you use the Staff of Magnus.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:49 pm

Ah, the answer is that it is complicated.

Take for instance a book like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Pig_Children.
This is an in-game book. Yet practically nothing that it says is true, it is all misunderstanding, racism and Imperial geocentric thinking.
Now compare that with a quote from a developer on this forum, who explains the meaning behind something in-game.

What is lore and what is true?
In this case, both are lore, but only the second one is 'true'.
The first one can be seen as a helpful insight into how Imperials view things, while you will never see the second one in-game.

I understand the book is propaganda but a dev clarification in the forum doent seem necessary to raise to the level of lore .It is Bethesda's game they can count what they want

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:54 am

Yes all of this is true.

No one can stand against the Dominion at this poin t and time the are the most powerful force in Tamriel right now. The White Gold Concordant was basically Mede II giving in to the Thalmors wishes.

Exactly..Glad someone else is able to grasp the whole picture. And excuse my many typos in that post, I was trying to type while pausing to fight an Elder Dragon. Needless to say I should have been paying more attention to what I was trying to say. Lol

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:52 am

Basically magic. Imagine magic to be the gun of the Elder Scrolls Universe. It's a major trump card as using magic powers, you can manipulate the very fabric of space and time. It seems to me that since Elves are natural magic users...yeah.

Imagine this:

The Empire loses ten men for every twenty Aldmeri Dominion Foot soldiers. But the wizards are used as the special troopers and they bring back all twenty foot soldiers as thralls. Then obviously the kill count for both sides are even. But then the wizards bombards the legionaries with their spells while Legion Mages can't compete against the Mages on their side.

Basically, to beat the Thalmor, you use the Staff of Magnus.

The empire is going to need something like the Numidiuim or some intervention from something with divine power yes.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:36 pm

I've heard that a few times, but never seen it said in canon anywhere. It's possible that such a lofty goal is just a justification for their authoritarianism. Also, do they need to actually destroy Mundus to escape? I've also heard that all the gods are really just overgrown ancestor spirit, that Talos is in fact a Daedra (consider the inherently evil nature of the heart of lorkhan - that should tell you a few things about it's true nature). But then you have Shor, which seems to have been an independent entity from Lorkhan, which further seems to support the 'overgrown ancestor spirit' theory.

"Canon" is a debatable term when it comes to TES, 'lore' less so.
Certainly the following quote from MK, published well before Skyrim came out provides some insight in the Thalmor:

"
What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos
To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.
To achieve this goal, we must:
1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.
2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.
3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

Now there are a few things that support this point of view. Most notably the Merish idea that the Mundus is a prison and the Aedra are jailors (as opposed to the mannish view that Creation is a gift).
The Dwemer tried to escape the downward spiral of creation by uncreating their entire race back to a point before their collective soul fragmented, they tried to make their entire race a god, the Numidium.
They failed through cause unknown, but the Thalmor seem to be trying the exact same thing.
Except that where the Dwemer wanted to uncreate their race into a giant time-travelling robot, the Thalmor are trying it by uncreating the world itself.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Exactly..Glad someone else is able to grasp the whole picture. And excuse my many typos in that post, I was trying to type while pausing to fight an Elder Dragon. Needless to say I should have been paying more attention to what I was trying to say. Lol

No problem i have typing errors all the time on these forums. The dragons at their elder and ancient levels do require concentration.

Me and you agree a lot on the state of the empire and the Thalmor, and they should not be trifled with and taken lightly.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:30 pm

Pretty sure it's lasers.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:51 am

"Canon" is a debatable term when it comes to TES, 'lore' less so.
Certainly the following quote from MK, published well before Skyrim came out provides some insight in the Thalmor:

"
What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos
To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.
To achieve this goal, we must:
1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.
2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.
3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

Now there are a few things that support this point of view. Most notably the Merish idea that the Mundus is a prison and the Aedra are jailors (as opposed to the mannish view that Creation is a gift).
The Dwemer tried to escape the downward sprial of creation by uncreating their entire race back to a point before their collective soul fragmented, they tried to make their entire race a god, the Numidium.
They failed through cause unknown, but the Thalmor seem to be trying the exact same thing.
Except that where the Dwemer wanted to uncreate their race into a giant time-travelling robot, the Thalmor are trying it by uncreating the world itself.

What exactly is MK I have been looking for the unncoiling of the dragon online and have not found on it. What is MK an abbreviation of?

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:09 pm

What exactly is MK I have been looking for the unncoiling of the dragon online and have not found on it. What is MK an abbreviation of?

Michael Kirkbride, an (ex) developer who still writes things on occasion.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:14 pm

Oh, jeez...Someone else who doen't know what they are talking about. The signing of the WGC wasn't a "mutual benefit for both parties"...The WGC is the same exact ultimatum that the Thalmor tried to force of Titus Mede II the first time, right before the Great War...

The Thalmor was fighting multiple fronts and attacking a larger, if more dispersed enemy. Imperials had the home ground and loyal provinces to draw reinforcement from. The longer they can stall the Thalmor army, the better the imperial position would have become.

The peace treaty was signed specifically to save one man, the emperor. Had he decided to do down fighting to the end, the worst that would have happened is his death and stacking of the imperial city. It does not change that the elven army will eventually be routed by superior numbers of imperials reinforced by other provinces.

Instead, He basically placed his own life over the country's welfare and signed a treaty which splinters his own country and weakens the loyally of his subjects while giving the Thalmor time to regain their strength and consolidate their positions in provinces they captured.

This is exactly like Chamberlain's actions. By giving Hilter what he wants, it merely empowers him to consolidate and strengthen his position and then demand more. If the allies had responded to Hilter forcefully and oust him from gemany before he really got started, WW2 might not have happened.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:44 pm

Wait I think I figured it out. When you said that Talos was the "mirror-brother" of Lorkhan. Write something down, and hold it up to a mirror. Notice something?

The writing is backwards.

That would mean that Talos is the Antithesis of Lorkhan, and was welcomed by the Gods as a result. Meaning that far from Talos being a reinforcement of the world-prison, he is an exit. But the Thalmor are too proud to acknowledge this possibility, that a Human could have not only seen through the (in all odds false) positive view of Lorkhan the Deciever, but beaten him at his own game where the Elves had failed.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:49 am

Michael Kirkbride, an (ex) developer who still writes things on occasion.

Oh thank you that is why I have not found it.

I am do not know the writers names.

I do think this sounds authentic. It seems to match their goal.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:32 pm

No problem i have typing errors all the time on these forums. The dragons at their elder and ancient levels do require concentration.

Me and you agree a lot on the state of the empire and the Thalmor, and they should not be trifled with and taken lightly.

Indeed, I feel Bethesda has planned this all out, brilliantly...People who have played Skyrim seem to be having the same problem as the people in the actual lore...we're all fighting about who is worse, the Empire or the Stormcloaks...when in reality the Thalmor are who we should really be keeping our eye on. Same with the lore, the Empire is so worried about destroying the Stormcloaks and vice versa. What they should have done was figure out a way to put aside their differences, forge an alliance and steadily grow in number and power together. Instead, the Imperials and Stormcloaks are at eachother's throats, killing off themselves while the Thalmor don't even have to lift a finger.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:10 pm

Wait I think I figured it out. When you said that Talos was the "mirror-brother" of Lorkhan. Write something down, and hold it up to a mirror. Notice something?

The writing is backwards.

That would mean that Talos is the Antithesis of Lorkhan, and was welcomed by the Gods as a result. Meaning that far from Talos being a reinforcement of the world-prison, he is an exit. But the Thalmor are too proud to acknowledge this possibility, that a Human could have not only seen through the (in all odds false) positive view of Lorkhan the Deciever, but beaten him at his own game where the Elves had failed.

That is very interesting, because as Vivec taught us in the Sermons, Talos is indeed an exit.
Vivec sees the Mundus as a proving ground, a platform for ascension, a means to reach something higher than the Aedra themselves.
How Talos achieved divinity Vivec calls the walking way, when you walk the walk of a god until they must walk like you.

The writing is backwards, but that does not mean antithesis or opposite, just as the left hand is not exactly the opposite of the right one.
If using a term from chemistry, it is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_%28mathematics%29.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:32 am

The peace treaty was signed specifically to save one man, the emperor. Had he decided to do down fighting to the end, the worst that would have happened is his death and stacking of the imperial city. It does not change that the elven army will eventually be routed by superior numbers of imperials reinforced by other provinces.

Superior numbers of Imperials?? How so?? The Imperial ranks are once again being decreased by the senseless war against the Stormcloaks...which is what the Thalmor intended. Also, what provinces do they have left besides a handful of already weakened nations?? Cyrodill has lost their alliances with Hammerfell, Black Marsh, Morrowind, Elsweyr and Valenwood. The Thalmor have Alinor, Valenwood, Elsweyr as well as the entire nation of Pyandonea backing them up.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:44 pm

Indeed, I feel Bethesda has planned this all out, brilliantly...People who have played Skyrim seem to be having the same problem as the people in the actual lore...we're all fighting about who is worse, the Empire or the Stormcloaks...when in reality the Thalmor are who we should really be keeping our eye on. Same with the lore, the Empire is so worried about destroying the Stormcloaks and vice versa. What they should have done was figure out a way to put aside their differences, forge an alliance and steadily grow in number and power together. Instead, the Imperials and Stormcloaks are at eachother's throats, killing off themselves while the Thalmor don't even have to lift a finger.

As is probably a part of the plane to help rend this nation apart. The Thalmor have the situation in hand because the Stormcloaks and the Empire are to arrogant and blind to see past their own differences and instead they want a pathetic power struggle because the empire does not want to lose territory and the Stormcloaks do not see the benefits of a united empire. So the Thalmor now watch as mankind murder each other as the Dominion gains more power and control. The empire has never been in such a pathetic and weakened state, they need a stronger leader. They both need to watch the Thalmor as the machinations they plan is far more sinister, and the empire or the Stormcloaks do not want an altmer mage lord making themselves known.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:03 pm

Superior numbers of Imperials?? How so?? The Imperial ranks are once again being decreased by the senseless war against the Stormcloaks...which is what the Thalmor intended. Also, what provinces do they have left besides a handful of already weakened nations?? Cyrodill has lost their alliances with Hammerfell, Black Marsh, Morrowind, Elsweyr and Valenwood. The Thalmor have Alinor, Valenwood, Elsweyr as well as the entire nation of Pyandonea backing them up.

The Aldmeri Dominion is the birth of a new empire.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:55 pm

As is probably a part of the plane to help rend this nation apart. The Thalmor have the situation in hand because the Stormcloaks and the Empire are to arrogant and blind to see past their own differences and instead they want a pathetic power struggle because the empire does not want to lose territory and the Stormcloaks do not see the benefits of a united empire. So the Thalmor now watch as mankind murder each other as the Dominion gains more power and control. The empire has never been in such a pathetic and weakened state, they need a stronger leader. They both need to watch the Thalmor as the machinations they plan is far more sinister, and the empire or the Stormcloaks do not want an altmer mage lord making themselves known.

Agreed. The initiation of the Grear War and the signing of the WGC is only a taste of what's to come. Tamriel's future is panning out to be rather dismal..especially if the Thalmor are allowed to achieve their main goal. The nations of man must put aside their differences and rise up against their true enemy -- The Aldmeri Dominion.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:26 am

That is very interesting, because as Vivec taught us in the Sermons, Talos is indeed an exit.
Vivec sees the Mundus as a proving ground, a platform for ascension, a means to reach something higher than the Aedra themselves.
How Talos achieved divinity Vivec calls the walking way, when you walk the walk of a god until they must walk like you.

The writing is backwards, but that does not mean antithesis or opposite, just as the left hand is not exactly the opposite of the right one.
If using a term from chemistry, it is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_%28mathematics%29.

Or, as I said, a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_image. If I were right, that would mean the Thalmor are ultimately working against their own goals. That would possibly also mean that Lorkhan managed to decieve them into working against their own goals. It could be that Mundus is a prison, not meant for man or elf, but for Lorkhan. Talos would then be the capstone, so that IF lorkhan ever managed to escape, there would be nowhere he could go but back into prison. (Because lorkhan's 'spot' in aetherius was being occupied by a mortal wearing his mantle)

Remember the heart was inherentely evil, which is why Dagoth-ur(evil) was so strong and the Tribunal(not evil) was so weak, and not just because Dagoth was camping the heart.

This still doesn't settle the issue of Shor, but I insist that Shor and Sovngarde were the result of the player's character being exposed to way too much "Nord nonsense" (if not a Nord themselves) and then plunged into Aetherius.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:11 pm

Well magic can beat weak soldiers.. Because the Imperial Soldiers I fought were so weak.. Aldmeri Domionion had good Elven armor

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:57 am

Agreed. The initiation of the Grear War and the signing of the WGC is only a taste of what's to come. Tamriel's future is panning out to be rather dismal..especially if the Thalmor are allowed to achieve their main goal. The nations of man must put aside their differences and rise up against their true enemy -- The Aldmeri Dominion.

That is if they can overcome one of the greatest weaknesses of man, arrogance. The Mer have lived millenia for a reason, they have a nature and personality to stand the test of time and put aside differences when need be.

This is just the beginningof their end game, its going to get very bleak if something does not give very soon.