That doesn't necessarily make one brave. Fatalist maybe.

more of a he knew after seeing you in front of him with your blade drawn: yeah im not gonna be able to get out of this one. oh well. stab me and get it over with then. not necessarily embracing it rather than just accepting it was inevitable this time.

Tiber Septim was an Emperor. Talos is a god. And the Empire in 4E 201 is not the Empire of Tiber Septim OR of Talos

They may hate the current Empire or not, it's not really relevant. What is relevant is that they want to secede from it and rule themselves, so they can be free to worship Talos, or Tiber Septim if you so choose, because under the rule of the current Empire they are not allowed to do that.

If the Stormcloaks are hypocritical for wanting to break away from an Empire in which it is illegal to worship a former Emperor that has become a god, then what does that make the Empire who agreed to repudiate his divinity and make it a crime to worship him?


And your proof of this is? I mean, aside from stuff that is also common or general policy in Imperial held territory, or just the words and actions of a couple of angry drunk losers.


No, he's trying to secede from the current Empire because the Empire that was "prevalent" in Skyrim for all those years no longer exists.


He's not Hadvar's father.


Unlike the Empire, which abandoned one of their own Divines, who as noted above is also the apotheosis of their greatest Emperor. And who were also willing to give away part of Hammerfell in order to appease the Dominion, and then cut all ties with Hammerfell when the natives objected to being sold off to ensure Cyrodiil's short term safety.

Indeed, it is not the Septim Empire the Stormcloaks oppose, it is the Mede Empire which was built with the remnants of the Septim Empire.

Hi all!

How can anyone talk about a fictional character immersed in a fictional plot and speculate about his moivations with the certitude pertaining to facts? I think Bethesda greyed up the whole Empire vs Stormcloak affair on purpose, just to ensure forum traffic during the off season months prior to Dawnguard. If I skew the facts just a bit, remodel a quote here and there, selectively pick my references, I can present either side as the incarnation of Evil. That is what you have done, OP:

My theory is he took advantage of the situation, ordering the death of Amaund to make it look like the Thalmor killed him and Amaund, Turing them into matry's

I don't think Mede is a bad guy, he had some success in the Great War, but then something happened. He lost his nerve, or someone got to him and turned the screws, and now he's apparently dithering while his empire burns. The real problem is we have no idea what his succession plan was, so Cyrodiil could be headed for civil war as well.

We dont even know if he had any sons or daughters, all we know is he had a cousin

But it was a Nord empire that came and it didn't conquer, it liberated them.

Edit:

Though in fairness to the current lot, the Empire is no longer Nordic and they have every right to declare themselves their own nation again.

We do it every day in real life when it comes to actual historic events. So why not do it with Skyrim?

He didn't want to die. But when the time of his death came he accepted it.
He didn't cry, beg, try to bride or influence. He stood up looked into the eyes of his killer like a man and said "Do what you came to do."

Yes. Now that you present it that way, it kind of sounds familiar. Maybe we could have an in-game whistleblower so some war documents would get leaked. We could then establish the truth based on facts, not on personal dispositions.

They swore service to Talos(Hjalti) back then, not the empire.

Tiber Septim = Talos. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tiber_Septim

On subject of the race, it isn't just their opinion about (for specific example the dark elves in Windhelm) race. It's Ulfric's policy. He disallows them to live anywhere but the Ghetto of Windhelm, and views them as lesser beings / subordinate to Nords.


This thread isn't called "The Stormcloaks are the incarnation of Evil." This thread is called "Hypocritical Stormcloaks." My direct opinion is that both sides have a lot of good points, and a lot of bad points. I just decided to do this thread on the Stormcloak's bad points, because from what I've seen, more people are Stormcloak fans than Empire ones.
As for your "remodeling" of quotes and selectively picking references...um, have you ever tried to debate something before?

I'm not trying to say the Stormcloaks are terrible. I'm just trying to motivate thought. Because I'm bored.

Also:


What he said.

No.

Talos = Tiber Septim, Wulfarth, and Zurin Arctus. Don't use the ESWiki. There's so much wrong with it, it's not even funny.

Imperial Library is the best source of Lore.

UESP is way better

I'm aware of his multiple facets. I was simply trying to tell Lyn that Tiber Septim IS Talos (or the other way around, whatever), because he seemed to be separating them into two distinct beings. The ESWiki was simply a clarification of that point - quick reference if you will.

Well ok, but that's about as much as any Nord or anybody with some backbone would do.

Talos' identity is a bit more complicated than that. There are http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy. Even if you don't accept the Arcturian Heresy, when he ascended he became Tiber Plus, so the equal sign isn't really accurate there.

The "ghetto" is likely a result of http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Decree_of_Monument made when Morrowind refugees entered Skyrim after the Vvardenfell eruption. It isn't racist. And I defy you to find one scrap of dialogue from Ulfric where he denigrates other races.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tiber_Septim
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nine-divines-talos

You guys do realize they say the same things (first paragraph guys), just UESP takes longer to say it, right?
Just because it doesn't give EVERY small detail doesn't mean it isn't a good reference. Take that to heart with you history papers, people .

Long live the empire! Can't wait to kill another of Ulfrics boys!

Fair point I suppose. Guess I didn't really think the race one through for Ulfric himself.
HOWEVER.

The Stormcloaks as a whole tend to have a similar mindset to the annoying drunk guys in Windhelm.
Why do you think their slogan is "Skyrim for the Nords?"

EDIT - As for Talos / Tiber Septim, I've already addressed the fact that Talos is a bit more complicated. My post was a simplified rebuttal - because it is more inaccurate to separate Talos and Tiber Septim into two different beings than it is to say that Talos = Tiber Septim. And besides...if you REALLY want to get down to it, Talos DOES = Tiber Septim, if you consider that he marched as General Talos...

Just saying.

Mortal and god are not necessarily the same being.

Take for instance Vivec. During his trial he states "Vehk the Mortal murdered the Nerevarine, Vehk the god did not"
Tiber is not the same as talos the god. They aren't equivicable.



ALL nords say this. Not stormcloaks.

Even the people of solitude discriminate.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cecilff2/screenshot/576707776914263343
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cecilff2/screenshot/576707776914259900

Edit: Clarified Talos the god, not Talos of Atmora.