Post limit reached on the last thread. Let's continue our discussion!

One more thing, please don't reply just to critisize 'how pointless' the civil war threads are. It is a very controversial issue that won't be settled until Bethesda does something with it in future DLC, or there is an unanimous agreement on which side is the better (which there won't be). With the being said, let Stormcloaks vs. Imperials thread #9,001 begin!

Did we clear up the whole "Titus Mede II let Valenwood and Elseweyr slip from the grasp of the Empire" thing?

I'm with the Empire until the end.

I'm not sure. I was absent from the last thread for most of the time. Ask those whom you conversed with about it when they show up to reply.

I'm with the Stormcloaks until the end.

According to Imperial library Valenwood was seized on 4E 29 while Elswyr is 4E 98 Titus Mede II ascend to throne on 4E 168. So no, I don't think he's at fault.

Hi all!


And why is that? For now, I would support the Stormcloaks. But one serious bad move from them and I'd be back fighting and trying to overthrow them. No carte blanche to any of the sides, none. Unworthy learderships are counting on the "us vs them" mechanism to kick in, prevent us from seeing reality for what it is and thus frame us into ever lasting blind loyalty.

Personally I find both sides to be pretty bad and none of the are exactly ideal. But I find the Emprie to generally be a lesser evil of the two, but not by much.
The things that push it in favor of the Empire for me is:
1. In the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak(who is my favorite character in the game) says that an Imperial victory will hurt the Thalmor in Skyrim. I know the Dossier also says that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided, but that is not my point here. At least how I see it that implies that the Empire is working against the Thalmor getting to much influence and apparently they have at least some success at it.

2: The Thalmor leader in Markarth cannot simply go into the home of a suspected Talos worshipper, which implies much the same as my first point: They don't have an "access everything at all times" deal.

3: More nations together seem to be a better option against the Dominion and I think it is safer to guarantee Skyrim allies againt the Dominion than to hope Ulfric manage to establish alliances with High Rock and Hammerfell.

4: The Empire have a better attitude towards magic which is something the Stormcloaks lacks almost entirely.

5: The Empire have a special operations agency, the Penitus Oculatus(spelling?), to gather vital information and assassination.

6: Both Rikke and Tullius heavily imply(as in almost saying it directly to you) that the Empire is preparing for another war with the Dominion(Rikke), and that the peace will likely not last much longer(Tullius).

Of course, there are plenty of bad things about the Empire, like allowing the banning of Talos and accepting to give up large portions of Hammerfell(which lead the Hammerfell secceeding), but those 6 points put the Empire slightly ahead of the Stormcloaks

This is mainly why I support the empire

you can have a daedric armor but there is spell that make armor unusable

you can have your best axe or sword but it doesn't matter since there are spell to reflect damage.

You don't have knowledge of magic you can easily walks into an area heavily booby trapped with runes.

It doesn't make any sense to side with the Stormcloaks with the thalmor around. If Skyrim was independent the empire would not come to defend it and it would make the empire weaker overall

Hello Tdroid.


What do you mean by this?

My warrior supports the Empire and (Sadly) has fought with them against the Stormcloaks.
Although he fought them with much bravery, his brains started spinning everytime he was looking one of em in the eyes.
He was fighting his own brothers and sisters all the while knowing there's a much bigger enemy then any of the two sides.
Now, after the war is won and alduin is gone, he can only hope for the day he will see his Stormcloak brothers alongside his Imperial brothers fight side by side against the Thalmor.
May Akatosh guide you all in these troubled times.

Generally nords distrust magic and thus a disadvantage when fighting the dominion which is magic oriented, because they will be fighting blindly while the empire has High Rock at least and doesn't distrust magic at least not as much as nords.

That the Stormcloaks don't use magic as they think it is for weak ones, the elves, while the Empire has no problem with it, making magic-inclined players a good reason to fight against the "true" Nords of Skyrim.

Hi again.


I see your point. But in case of an invasion wouldn't all of the other magic practicing races join in and side with the Stormcloaks to repell it? Also, would you be sure this disdain for magic is universal among Nords?

Do you really believe that:

1) The empire would just (essentially) hand Skyrim over to the Thalmor
2) That the Thalmor would be able to invade Skyrim without losing territory somewhere else?

Because you aren't much of a military strategist if either of those is true. I'd hope the empire would have better people conducting their operations.

Seriously, even if Skyrim won it's independence, it's silly to assume the Empire would then turn their backs on them, and hand Skyrim over to the Thalmor. Especially considering the number of Nords in the Imperial Army.

IF they did that, you can bet they'd attack and retake .

Also, I'm pretty hopeful that the Empire learned from the whole Hammerfell thing. Just sayin.

But they won't be part of the main army, a few magic users won't be able to make a difference.

For example because they're outnumbered the dominion conjure dremora, astronach, etc. Now if you've got any knowledge of magic you'll know to kill the summoner first not the conjured creature, the stormcloaks know nothing about magic they'll focused on the conjured creature, while when they are done the dominion have already conjured a new batch.

Imperial! Imperial!

At which point, even the most magic hating Nord will get the idea, and attack the mages. Common sense isn't a magic power, though it may seem so considering it's rarity.

This is but speculation, but I'm pretty sure any decent army would adapt. If they realized their tactics against magic practicioners weren't working they'd soon recrute some for their own ranks. If TES VI or some future DLC were to deal with the invasion of an independent SKyrim, I'm sure we'd be seeing a lot of magic practicing Nords and allied forces. But this is speculation, all of this.

It's not common sense, it's basic knowledge of conjuration doesn't mean that everyone that know nothing about magic will know. If I don't know anything it's possible that I'll think that the conjured creature would stays even after I killed the caster.

But alright, I'll give you another one, Let's say the dominion use necromancy, if you've mages they can cast turn undead, etc and thus lower casualties than attacking them.

Another one the dominion uses invisibility to retreat, a mage can cast detect life to prevent them from escaping, what can non-mages do?

And yet another one, the dominion use levitate spell so they'll be harder to reach if you''ve mages they can cast dispel.


And another one, a frenzy spell has been cast, if there's a mage you can cast calm spell to counter this, with no mage? What can you do?


Nords are known to be stubborn.

Hello Z. By a better attitude towards magic I mean that they value the power it can give and are willing to use it. Nords and even more Stormcloak Nords seem to be very distrustful of magic, thinking it is something for weaker races and cultures. The Stormcloak of Winterhold seems to do his best to gett rid of the College, or at least his best to smear their reputation. The Imperial Jarl of Winterhold will try to promote a better relation with it.

Only they do.

There's a general mistrust of magic among the Nords, that's true. Still, most Nord Jarls (including Mr "I'm Supposed To Hate Elves" Stormcloak himself) have court wizards, and gladly hand out enchanted weapons and armor to any adventurer (i. e. the Dragonborn) they want to award.

1) Yes it is. Honestly, how many times will they kill the atronachs before someone kills a mage?

2) Fair enough... but once they see them turn to ashes they might just avoid them for a minute... unless you're suggesting they have an army of conjuration masters... in which case I'd say the Nords are one handed masters... then they just cut them down.

3) Archer volley. It's not like archer volleys are aimed at specific people anyway.

4) See 3.

5) I'll concede that one. A frenzy spell will mess up an army, at least until they engage. Then they're close enough to the enemy that they might just target them anyway. I can't rightly think of a counter to that one.

I suppose the archers will just have to use some frenzy poison then. Plenty of
This is getting kinda silly now.

I'm not denying that they use enchanted weapon bit it's common, even the enchanter at college says that they use enchanted weapons and armor.

About the court mages though, good point, I forgot about them. But do they join the battle? As I've posted several scenario above that shows disadvantage without the presence of mage on the battlefield.


1) Alright I'll concede on that one, they have cour mages to tell them that basic things anyway.

2) Until they resurrected the nords themselves.

3) Fair enough.

4) Fair enough on levitation but dispel can be used on many others, such as reflect damage.

About the frenzy poison, mage can counter that with calm spell.