Jumping and Picking up Objects in FNV : Fallout: New Vegas

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:24 pm

you can throw them.
push z, then while holding it, turn right, then quickly turn left and quickly push z again.
with the momentum from quickly moving the mouse, mixed with letting go at the right time, will allow you to throw an item, but it wont confuse the AI, if you alert them, they come after you, not the area of the sound.

That's not throwing implemented through the engine by the devs. That's a desperate attempt at trying to find a work around to throw something.

» Thu May 19, 2011 3:00 pm

Isn't there rope ladders in the elder scrolls iv?

Ladders, yeah. But you didn't climb them, you just 'activated' them and automatically and magically appeared in the floor above/below.

» Thu May 19, 2011 11:37 pm

Gamebryo doesn't code the AI, devs do. Garbage in, garbage out.

You have to understand, where you see a game engine, I see compiled C++ code. Same with the AI, I see code. The binary is only as good as the coder. It's like playing a low resolution video on a media player. Because the video is low resolution and looks like crap, it doesn't mean the media player is bad or that it can handle a high resolution video.

I would love to know what this guy means by "AI problems", because as far as the meshes and animations go, the game engine will play them. Since he's saying "AI problems", I am going to guess the issues would be with random NPCs encountering a ladder in game, and not with the main character going up and down a ladder.

As for the engine being "old", well, sure it first came up a decade ago, but again, it is C++ code. Source code can be edited and recompiled. Coding a new game engine from scratch wouldn't make much sense. Most game engines are written in C++, so it is only a matter of adding whatever new resources are available, edit the code, and recompile.

That's all well and good, but if their AI can't handle it, their AI can't handle it. While I'm sure they're more than capable of recoding the AI pathfinding to include ladders (Which are, indeed, a completely different beast to floors. It's adding completely vertical movement, for one) they've obviously looked at it and thought "Actually, our reskinned doors do the job just as well. Nobody needs to see the climbing animation, it's just not that interesting". As in, it's the engine. Because they don't want to spend time fixing it.

» Fri May 20, 2011 5:05 am

I've played too many kz maps on counter-strike because most of the time I spend in Oblivion I spend jumping around the towns/cities to get where "I'm not supposed to go".

Anyway, they said they had problems putting ladders into the game.
If they can't put those in the game I don't see how they're suppose to include climbing.

At the beginning of the pitt a pitt raider runs leaps over the edge of the wall & hangs down & drops or slides down.
At the beginning of OA the first guy you talk to on the cliff...he goes & climbs a cliff.
I also once saw a mod on oblivion were a guy shot arrow with rope on it,at the walls in the cities....then climbed up it..he climbed just like you would on a ladder.
So i think this can be done...& so can higher & longer jumping too.
if your agility is high you should jump higher & further,just like strength makes you carry more.
just my view

» Thu May 19, 2011 10:32 pm

There is another reason why Climbing is, well, gimped in these games. All you have to do is turn off clipping the console and walk up near a building and look down. There are no real roofs on many of the structures. For example the ruins around DC where you are blocked on the ground and have to go under ground. In fact, a lot of the structures are just like Hollywood sets were you see the fronts and sides, but there is nothing behind them. Well, if you TCL over the buildings, you will see what I am talking about. By taking out climbing, or not allowing, it makes the job of creating a world that much easier. Plus it allows places like Megaton to have an exterior to look at as you approach, but have an interior cell to move around in while you are in the city. While not all settlements or structures work this way, enough do that climbing would break immersion faster than not being able to climb.

Would it better if you could climb things, maybe.
Would be it harder to design a world that accommodates climbing everywhere? Yes.
Would the ability to climb add anything to the game? Maybe, if the game world was designed so that you had to climb somewhere to get to something.

For example the the Burial Caves in Morrowind during the Main Quest you needed to climb up, but they were designed that way. They did not have to be. Some areas in that cave and in other places you had to levitate to because there was no other way up, and the game provided a way to levitate. Levitation would make no sense in the Fallout world (no magic) however they could have just as easily made a way to climb up there.

Personally I have not seen a reason to climb up anywhere in Fallout 3 or Oblivion which used the same engine.

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:08 pm

When you mention it im also wondering why it wasen't for any quests. i got my megaton house full of mini nukes upstairs in the little room. i have placed them on top of each other.
And lol i used to do this in Oblivion and i made a party house in Chorrol whit cupcakes and everything. and the main food was .,,.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((THE ANNOYING LITTLE BASTARD!))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

» Fri May 20, 2011 5:40 am

There is another reason why Climbing is, well, gimped in these games. All you have to do is turn off clipping the console and walk up near a building and look down. There are no real roofs on many of the structures. For example the ruins around DC where you are blocked on the ground and have to go under ground. In fact, a lot of the structures are just like Hollywood sets were you see the fronts and sides, but there is nothing behind them. Well, if you TCL over the buildings, you will see what I am talking about. By taking out climbing, or not allowing, it makes the job of creating a world that much easier. Plus it allows places like Megaton to have an exterior to look at as you approach, but have an interior cell to move around in while you are in the city. While not all settlements or structures work this way, enough do that climbing would break immersion faster than not being able to climb.

Would it better if you could climb things, maybe.
Would be it harder to design a world that accommodates climbing everywhere? Yes.
Would the ability to climb add anything to the game? Maybe, if the game world was designed so that you had to climb somewhere to get to something.

For example the the Burial Caves in Morrowind during the Main Quest you needed to climb up, but they were designed that way. They did not have to be. Some areas in that cave and in other places you had to levitate to because there was no other way up, and the game provided a way to levitate. Levitation would make no sense in the Fallout world (no magic) however they could have just as easily made a way to climb up there.

Personally I have not seen a reason to climb up anywhere in Fallout 3 or Oblivion which used the same engine.

This.

» Thu May 19, 2011 5:18 pm

There is another reason why Climbing is, well, gimped in these games. All you have to do is turn off clipping the console and walk up near a building and look down. There are no real roofs on many of the structures. For example the ruins around DC where you are blocked on the ground and have to go under ground. In fact, a lot of the structures are just like Hollywood sets were you see the fronts and sides, but there is nothing behind them. Well, if you TCL over the buildings, you will see what I am talking about. By taking out climbing, or not allowing, it makes the job of creating a world that much easier. Plus it allows places like Megaton to have an exterior to look at as you approach, but have an interior cell to move around in while you are in the city. While not all settlements or structures work this way, enough do that climbing would break immersion faster than not being able to climb.

To back this up, I myself ran into problems with my exterior cell when I created a large building that had a full roof, sides and whatnot - something that the player could get on top of or view from any side - I though it was soo cool as it would give the building multiple uses (front-side one area, back-side another area like the capitol, top yet another shanty-town spot.

And what did I get for my efforts? The building svcked-up 70% of the optimal loading for an exterior cell (the little percentage in the GECK at the lower-right). When you go over 100%, the border turns Red and your over the top for console performance.

This means that my super-cool swiss army knife building was too-much for the game engine at the end of the day, and my skills not elite-enough to see it beforehand. It was on that day I learned why Bethesda made buildings without roofs or backs - designed to look right from only one perspective. I finished my exterior world area before realizing all of this, my percentage at a whopping 230%. :shakehead: Needless to say that building/area will never hit production as it is today.

Maybe with IdTech5 we will get to the point where models can all be fully-fleshed out without a hit on performance, but with the current Gamebroyo engine that is simply not possible - the models need to be minimized to only what the player might see. Its efficient to be sure, but also limiting in what you can do with them in the end.

Miax

» Fri May 20, 2011 12:10 am

Question: Dose the Tech5 engine even support freeroaming like GameBryo dose?

» Thu May 19, 2011 4:25 pm

the devs need to pay rockstar games to get the RAGE engine

» Thu May 19, 2011 6:32 pm

That's all well and good, but if their AI can't handle it, their AI can't handle it. While I'm sure they're more than capable of recoding the AI pathfinding to include ladders (Which are, indeed, a completely different beast to floors. It's adding completely vertical movement, for one) they've obviously looked at it and thought "Actually, our reskinned doors do the job just as well. Nobody needs to see the climbing animation, it's just not that interesting". As in, it's the engine. Because they don't want to spend time fixing it.

I don't think you understand what we am talking about. "The AI" is not a singular entity working on its own. It is something you code, which includes simple things like if statements, reactions to collision meshes, etc. and you bundle in packages. All of that is coded foe each different action you want NPC to take. And apparently, they are not capable of coding this.

Ladders aren't "a different beast" from doors. To the engine, they are just meshes with collision frames; there's no "horizontal" or "vertical", just x, y, z.

And skinning refers to textures, which have absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about.

» Fri May 20, 2011 5:59 am

Thats fine I guess
but I really don't want missions that require jumping

The one thing I hate of all games is making precision jumps
where I spend 5 minutes trying to jump on a ledge cause I'm doing it wrong
or mis-time a jump, fall 5000 feet and have to start over

I'll agree. No jumps that are next to "impossible". Challenging without having to start all over if you fall. Maybe just back track one short level of a building instead of 10 stories.

» Fri May 20, 2011 1:16 am

That's a desperate attempt at trying to find a work around to throw something.

yes it is...
yes it is...

hehehe!!!

you get it! :brokencomputer:

but for climbing ladders. i have an idea for the AI

if you code ladders with a flag with radius (much like sound is done) and have the animation triggered off that. then put a pause on the monsters action = to the time it takes for the animation to get to the top. you could code the AI to handle the ladders like stairs....
right now (im almost 100% sure, and if im wrong could a DEV please correct) the testing for ladders is done by pushing the action button to climb them. with the flag radius option, you would rub against the ladder to climb it.
having the action button to climb ladders confuses the AI into thinking it was a door that led nowhere, causing a glitch.
if you really want ladders, for the expansion please bump this, at least it will raise an eyebrow for a work around... :foodndrink:

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:30 pm

I'm glad you do not design games.
If you ever start let me know, please.
I'm going to quit.

I'm kidding, but when hey put that into splinter cell it slowed the game so much it was boring.

Because that sounds like the worst idea, dragging a body around.
Now, if the body somehow was like attached to you, rigor mortis or maybe it exploded into your face from a landmine... that would be cool.
It would be cool if your eye got blown off and then you had to cut off somebody's head and bring their eye back to the doc within a certain period of time so that you could get you eye back. While you were walking around with one eye they could give you black outs and narrow your vision. You'd lose half your equipment getting pick pocketed all across town.

Maybe the new eye would be a canine eye or a feline eye that gave you some extra human sight ability.

That's the kinda imagination I'm hoping for.

I play video games to do things I can't do, easily.

Not sure who you're aiming at, but I'm suggesting new ways they could further make use of these two great features.

One example already stated, jumping over or onto platforms to access areas inaccessible unless you jump up there. Maybe create an entire building where this is useful. Maybe there's a way to "upgrade" your jumping, like in Oblivion.

And for picking stuff up, maybe they could create a mission where you have to manually carry or drag a body all the way back to a certain location as part of the mission requirements, all the while defending yourself, then picking the body back up.

» Thu May 19, 2011 11:32 pm

You shouldn't be required to run and jump and climb around. If you want to play as a Power Armored behemoth lugging around a mini-gun, you should be able to do just that without having to worry about making a jump. It's useful, but let's not make it an important part of the game.

» Thu May 19, 2011 5:09 pm

Sometimes I do both at once.

I never would have thought of that!

This man is a genius

:bowdown:

» Fri May 20, 2011 1:50 am

I don't think you understand what we am talking about. "The AI" is not a singular entity working on its own. It is something you code, which includes simple things like if statements, reactions to collision meshes, etc. and you bundle in packages. All of that is coded foe each different action you want NPC to take. And apparently, they are not capable of coding this.

Ladders aren't "a different beast" from doors. To the engine, they are just meshes with collision frames; there's no "horizontal" or "vertical", just x, y, z.

And skinning refers to textures, which have absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I've designed and programmed video games too, you know. The AI pathfinding is buggy as heck enough already, in its current state it has trouble navigating 3d environments, adding the additional complexity of entirely vertical structures would almost certainly break it. Reskinning, I believe, can also refer to model changes - which is what ladders are, right now, though I could be wrong about the exact definition. I realise it's nice to go onto forums and be condecending, but fully 3D pathfinding isn't particularly easy, doing it for dozens of NPCs at the same time and keeping reasonable resource usage on aging hardware isn't easy either. The pathfinding they currently have works, is resource efficient enough, and only sometimes causes NPCs to not realise that what they think is a floor isn't so they fall to a painful death below. Ladders would be nice, but they are certainly not essential to gameplay, and better performance is better than ladders.

» Thu May 19, 2011 3:45 pm

You shouldn't be required to run and jump and climb around. If you want to play as a Power Armored behemoth lugging around a mini-gun, you should be able to do just that without having to worry about making a jump. It's useful, but let's not make it an important part of the game.

You're probably right. Shooting plays a significant role, while jumping and carrying stuff, secondary abilities, but still useful.

When I'm overencumbered, I drop the heaviest armor or item, then pick it up manually and carry it to my location so I don't lose it's cash in value.

» Fri May 20, 2011 4:01 am

This.

i hate "This" comments. they dont contribute anything to the discussion, and are only there for personal gains (a stupid rating based on comments). i think that saying "this" should not be allowed.... but eh, thats just my two cents

» Fri May 20, 2011 4:48 am

i hate "This" comments. they dont contribute anything to the discussion, and are only there for personal gains (a stupid rating based on comments). i think that saying "this" should not be allowed.... but eh, thats just my two cents

This

» Fri May 20, 2011 1:54 am

This

I knew that was going to happen.

On topic: I think the picking up mechanics should be improved. A lot.

» Thu May 19, 2011 6:48 pm

i hate "This" comments. they dont contribute anything to the discussion, and are only there for personal gains (a stupid rating based on comments). i think that saying "this" should not be allowed.... but eh, thats just my two cents

This.

-----
Kidding of course. But I think it's the same as +1, a quick and easy way to say "I agree".

» Thu May 19, 2011 3:19 pm

-----
Kidding of course. But I think it's the same as +1, a quick and easy way to say "I agree".

exactly

THIS!!!

» Thu May 19, 2011 2:55 pm

exactly

THIS!!!

Good laugh. Thanks.

» Fri May 20, 2011 1:26 am

i hate "This" comments. they dont contribute anything to the discussion, and are only there for personal gains (a stupid rating based on comments). i think that saying "this" should not be allowed.... but eh, thats just my two cents

Until we're able to rate posts, it's here to stay.