I see an awful lot of comments on how negative level scaling is in TES games, or Skyrim in particular.

I'm wondering if anyone took the time to consider WHY level scaling is there. If not, I can help.
We all love TES games as nonlinear experiences. We enjoy being able to have 30 hours in the game and not yet left Whiterun, we appreciate being able to go to Rorikstead to find out about that horse thief's hometown BEFORE going for the main quest and so on.

Now suppose level scaling wasn't there. You ain't gonna go north at lvl 7, sir, cause mobs will melt your face. No exploring of random caves for you, unless you're the proper level. And god forbid you left something behind, doing your own errands. Step back into the main quest and everything is a pushover.


Level scaling is a necessary consequence of freedom. If you remove scaling, then Whiterun becomes the level 10> town, after which you move to, say, Riften, and so on and so forth. You need to take dungeons in a strict order, and explore following the level range of the various areas. Skyrim is commendable because it keeps some fixed level ranges to make sure some places are harder (and more epic) than other, but level scaling, in a sandbox RPG, is a necessity. Deal with it.

If there would be no scaling in TES the game wouldn't be any fun whatsoever.

Good thread. Would read again.

Didn't morrowind not have level scaling? I can't remember so maybe I'm wrong, but I still went wherever i wanted at the start of new games.

You're missing the point. Level scaling wouldn't be a problem if it was partial and made sense. TES' level scaling basicly allows you to beat the game at lvl 1 if you want to, and for some reason common thieves are strutting around in full Elven gear trying to rob you off a few coins later in the game. It makes no sense. There's no reason we can't still explore the world if it wasn't level scaled. We'd just have to be more careful, making the game more exciting, and work harder, making the game more rewarding.

There has to be some minimum for us to reach, otherwise there is no way for us to feel like we've accomplished anything. If the point of levelling is non-existant then levelling itself might as well be non-existant.

Well said.

I can confirm that you're full of [censored]. You can't beat a Chaurus Reaper at level 1(yes, they are there), but easy as pie at level 40.

FCOM begs to differ.

What you're suggesting is a system that works more or less around these premises:

- level scaling is there, bringing the level range of creatures as close to your level as possible when first spawned
- certain creatures and areas have ranges between which the level range can act - say, bandits can be anything between 1 and 40, so if a lvl 50 character approaches a bandit den, he knows he will massively outlevel them; a daedric lord can never be less than level 20, so if you stumble in one at level 10, you're screwed no matter what

Isn't that right? Cause that's how Skyrim works.

I'm Birdflunuggetz, and I approve of the OP's post.

Skyrim isn't completely level scaled like oblivion, its better this way. And it is true that it needs some level scaling, so it wouldnt be boring or have level zones like mmos.

OOO changes Oblivion in radical ways, making it a fundamentally linear experience. There are benefits to be reaped there, but OOO does nothing but prove my point. The world of Oblivion, once you install OOO, is locked behind a scripted progression.

The scaling is much better than in Oblivion. You really feel the danger at early levels and can still be easily overwhelmed in the wrong situation at mid-levels.
I think they learnt something from OOO and other community mods in Oblivion.
I still think they could go further. I am sure some clever modders will improve this next year.

Nope, sorry. Except if linear means x% paths on a tree are locked. (tree being progression and exploring).

http://www.bethblog.com/index.php/2011/10/13/jeff-vs-sam-ii-the-skyrim-speedrun/

It is right. Unfortunately, that's not how Skyrim works entirely. There have already been reports about, as I mentioned before, thieves trying to rob you even though they're carrying better gear than you on higher levels. Not to mention dragons being complete pushovers when you're still low level and getting roflstomped by regular town guards before you even get close to them, so much for dragons being a threat.

That's why I said level scaling wouldn't be a problem if it made sense.

EDIT: To clarify, the OP was wondering why people are hating on Skyrim. The above is why, it was present in Oblivion and they thought it fixed in Skyrim. It hasn't been, hence the rage.

Yeah, because the game ends forever when you've beaten the main questline that is a fraction of the available quests.

Linear means that instead of having a full world you can explore at your own leisure you've got a handful of pre-determined paths to take in the order the mod-writer felt appropriate. OOO is MMO-ish in nature (you're level 20, you can level in Stranglethorn, you can level in Stonetalon, but don't dream about going Silithus), and I don't feel that fits TES in any way.

What TES games should is making sure that the entire world is survivable at any level (at different degrees of challenge, of course, so going to the far north at level 10 fighting polar bears is a much more dangerous and thrilling experience than doing so at 40), and than put challenges in the game (that hard dungeon, that epic fort siege, that haunted island) that you can't approach until you've reached an appropriate level.

Let's clear this up : you're dead wrong and level scaling is not only NOT a necessity, it's actually a liability that conteract and nullify most of the game. There is no point in having a leveling mechanism in the first place if there is scaling - it just inflates numbers. There is no point in having a huge world to explore with level scaling - there is nothing to actually uncover, because things are adjusted on your level, so there is nothing unique in any dungeons. There is a waste of lore, immersion and progression considering that the relevance of items, skills and the like is linked to your level and not their own value. There is blatant absurdity in the scenario considering that the power scale of foes is completely out of whack and make no sense.

Your arguments are just a bunch of fallacies and caricatures that may convince the simple minds who are unable to see past oversimplified absurdities, but they are not going to make anyone with a bit of reasoning do anything else than /Facepalm.

If anyone it's you who's simpleminded. As you notice when playing the game it doesn't 100% scale. As you level up the game becomes gradually easier if you specialize in that manner. It's not like NPCs level up with you and gain the exact benefits you get. And really, scaling nullifies most of the game? You've got to be freaking kidding me, you sound like a religious fanatic.

Then what's the point of skills and leveling up? If all can be managed at any level, there is no reason to have levels at all, just a static difficulty curve.

If it needs to be there, the scaling should jump over the player - and not at the player - and then leave behind before jumping again at certain interwals as the player gains levels to let the skill/level progression be felt.

Fine if that was meant, but then that way technically the game can "never" end.

Either way, these are easily "beatable," one method would be just to ignore it and run away, or if you rather kill it; conjure something (with or without a companion) and get it's focus on that, use this time to apply any poisons you may have found, then if it dies, run away like a sissy and repeat until C Reaper is dead.

Or does this count as "exploiting" to you? Because you could easily abuse NPC AI if it came to that.

Pot, meet kettle. I'm pointing at the reasons why level scaling destroy the main points of the game, your only answers are vague "you're kidding me". I guess that your unability to get/understand the point make me simpleminded

If they don't scale as fast as you gain level, then it's just a glorified and shaky equivalence of slower/smaller progression. Still make level scaling pointless, you could just slow/tone down the leveling process.

So, let's take a hypothetical and simplified example : if each time I gain 2 levels, enemies gain 1, then it's just the same as if there is no level scaling but it's twice as long to gain level, or level only give half as much power.
Hence my previous point :
"There is no point in having a leveling mechanism in the first place if there is scaling - it just inflates numbers."

Or you're just too simpleminded to actually read the explanations written ?

I can see both sidea of the argument being viable.

One on side you have what we have now, which really doesnt bother me too much.

On the other, if done right, you'd have no level scaling, more powerful creatures in different parts of the world where it would likely have better loot, harder dungeons...many old school RPGs are like this. I have no problem with it, again, if done correctly. But it's a bit too late now for Skyrim, no?

Fallout New Vegas had no world scaling and it made the game linear in the end.