Skyrim level scales like Fallout. Creatures have a max level. Some (dragon priests) are incredibly high. Others (mud crabs) are capped for early game content. Bandits seem to scale with you, but they don't get all ridiculous like they did in Oblivion, or at least, I haven't run into any wearing daedric armor yet.

Because it was better hidden, and less expansive.
The problem is that randomization doesn't necessarily bring what the proponent of each side actually look for.
Level scaling proponent want to have everything doable or challenging everytime - randomization means they will have a lot of impossible/trivial encounters.
Level scaling opponents want a world that make sense and is immersive, and a feeling of progression - even if the real world has lots of random stuff, randomization alone doesn't make a world believable, it needs still to have logic, and by itself it's not something randomization brings.
This point was already made in the first page. To sum it up, the answer is : if it's only about customization, then you can scraqe the leveling system and just add a customization one (which is also a viable way to design a game, BTW). The problem is still that the game world feels wonky when you have no logical power scale between the foes (or at least much less logical scale than with a fixed level system), and that many people also want progression and not just customization.

Exactly my point. If you svck at planning and strategy then no scaling would work for you since all you need do is to grind until you outclass them and you can complete any mission with a broom and your underwear. Not to mention if you wanted to create a game that you can free roam on day one, non scaled leveling would make it impossible since you will always be restricted to a circle of travel base on your level.

Read all ten pages of this thread.

I that I can gather is that neither side is right. Figured there were going to be some solid arguments.

I agree that Skyrim's level scaling is much less egregious than Oblivion's (thank God...). If the argument seems to be exagerated, it's because it's often just to illustrate a concept - of course you can adjust it to the actual intensity.
To take your example, bandits going from 1 to 25 (I'm pretty sure it's actually 25 and not 20) is already a HUGE bracket, that cover basically from "greenhorn" to "battle-hardened". Sure it tops after that, but that means there is basically no difference in how you fight a bandit at level 1 (rush them and kill them in three hits, like if you were already experienced and deadly) and how you fight them at level 15 (well... same thing...).
Do you really consider that you need to be "uptight" to notice that it's the same thing between being a complete rookie and being a hardened adventurer ?
Or to suddendly see items that were inexistant pop in the game just because you reached an arbitrary milestone ?
You can't really blame people for not being willingly blind :-/

Also, there is some who argue that the VERY IDEA of level scaling is bad. That, of course, you can make a game with it and tone it down enough that it's not a big deal, but that the game would be better without it altogether anyway. I'm firmly of this opinion, and so far I've never seen an argument for the necessity of level scaling that could not be actually better implemented by adequate design rather than artificially making up level on the fly.

Yeah im level 27... I haven't seen it. at most it might be boots or gantlets on 1 out of 10, as much crap you find in dongans and such as a player you don't think a few bandits snaged some off some pore traveler and what not?

For the earlier posts regarding the fastest possible playthrough of mainquest... mq related dungeons and enemies are heavily level scaled by comparison to everything else... just saying

Morrowind isnt level scaling, its dungeon scaling. In Morrowind most of the NPCs were static and non-regenerative. Some dungeons were meant for players of any level and other dungeons were meant for players of high level or better equipment. Good example is your Daedric ruins usually consisted of much tougher enemies then your bandit cave. You also had dungeons which contained the Dagoth character and the corprus infected people, which were much stronger then your Guar, Bandit or Hound. This is NOT level scaling.

Oblivion was completely level scaled. Every single area (with exception to a significantly small number of areas, such as the troll painting quest) of the game could be tackled at level one or level 20. This is level scaling at its peak. Every spawn, every monster was attuned directly to your level.

Skyrim is a mix between Level scaling and dungeon scaling. Dungeons scale some mobs to your current level (Draugr patrols, Mades, Necromancer) and left other mobs virtually static (bandits, some Draugr spawns, Draugr Overlords). This meant that Bethesda intended that some dungeons be tackled at any level and some left for characters a of higher level (such as the Masked SHout Protectors (forgot their names they drop those named masks). Giants, Mammoths, Bears, Mountain Lions, Wolves did not scale (or if they did, not much). There are others.

I don't think that's true at all, with all my new shouts, skills and powers I Fight bandits in much larger groups and vary different manner than i did at lower level. I may not be able to kill them with one sword swipe but hell if i cant mow groups of them down with some well placed Ice traps, some potion's (strength, resistants, ETC) a sword and shield and a shout that slows time.

than i kill them all much quicker than i did at level 1. and its alot more flashy


((but yeah.... Dragons are to easy))

I love you all! You know why? Because all of you people care so much about this game (like me), you're dedicated players all around. Apart from lonely teens with really devoted fan mentality that thinks everything Todd Howard does is sacred (even his feces, God forbid anyone say his [censored] smells bad!), everybody seems to come from a legitimate gamer perspective.

What pisses me off is that none of you are important. Sorry, I should say none of us. Devs and game directors know (they'll never admit it, but they know) that you're hooked for life. C'mon! You're here debating in an obscure little Forum, you're the smallest most dedicated percentage of their base. Doesn't matter what they do or how pissed off you act, you're all gonna pre-order TES VI and play it like crazy, no matter what. They found the balance to keep pleasing old fans (lore, mood etc.), no matter how watered-down the challenge curve appeals true gamers. In the end, everything will be adressed in CK anyway.

Here are the people who are being adressed by Beth in Skyrim, the ones that matter (true story, like it or not):

In the bank where I work two secretaries were talking, yesterday, one of them loves to play video games in her X-Box, particularly those dancing games that uses Kinectic:

- So, yeah, my son is horribly addicted to playing this new game (shows an article on the Internet, the game in question is Skyrim).
- Oh, yeah, yeah, I got it last week. It's awesome!
- (shocked) You play these games?!
- Oh, you should try it girlfriend! It's amazing, it's SOOOO beatiful, you can go everywhere you want, the clothes are beatiful, lots of action!
- (incredule) Humm... Really? I only play Pac-Man... (giggles) My son and my husband love it tough, they're playing together. But, I don't know, every time they put me to play one of these games my character keeps dying! (giggles)
- (giggling) I know!!!! Me too! (facepalm) But this one is different, it's so cool, and it's really easy, you should try it!

The next day, same two secretaries:
- (the one who doesn't play video games) OMG girl! I LOVED it! I could actually play the game!!! Every time I tried in other games I never managed to do anything, but this one is so awesome, and oh so pretty!
- See?! I told you!
(they both high-five each other giggling histerically.

Level/Loot scale, how is done, when, to what degree: pointless from our perspective, we have enough experience to draw out the good points of this game and enjoy it, some more than others.

What matters for Beth is how larger can their market become (and I'm not even gonna say they're wrong in doing it, they're a company, not revolutionary artists).

I dare any of you, any of you at all, to say that Skyrim is harder than Morrowind for those two lovely ladies from above to be able to play it. Is this a bad thing? I honestly don't know. All I know is that this game was made for them to be able to appreciate it too. It's not about freedom, they could make a game with 10x more freedom than Skyrim and make it 10x more challenging. They have the talent and the history to do it. Theirs was a commercial decision, nothing to do with anything other than that.

Post limit.