In one of the other leveling-hate-posts, my take on this:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1283753-skyrim-another-leveling-nightmare-part-ii/page__view__findpost__p__19380506

Basically, there are multiple options for doing this and Beth chose this one. Get over it or stop playing, but in any case, stop complaining.

I'm afraid I got to disagree, and in order to do so I have to bring in (actual) RPGs: PnP ones.

Your statement seems to imply that the only rightful kind of RPG is the Dungeons & Dragons styled one. The one in which at level 1 you have 10 hit points, at level 10 you got 100, and you'll never hit a dragon unless you're level 20 and you got some beefy magical equipment.
I can see that. I love that, both in PnP (D&D is still my favourite system) and in videogames.

However, there's other styles of RPGs. Games like Savage Worlds, GURPS etc that don't feature HP scaling (you have the same hit points at level 1 as you do at level 10, since the game doesn't magically assume you become a walking battle tank by becoming better at swinging your sword), attack rolls barely scale at all and so on. And they are absolutely hardcoe RPG systems whose fans see D&D fans as the "console kiddies".

Stat scaling isn't a requirement for a good RPG. In fact, as I pointed out in the other post, a leveling system can lead to some fantastic RPing even if all mobs leveled with you, because you'd still have customization in place.

To all the noobs complaining about level scaling and especially to the guy in the beginning saying we should have none, I suggest you stop buying Bethesda games. Every Bethesda open world game has level scaling. OOO had it, morrowind had it, fallout an new vegas had it. If there was no level scaling, the game would svck. It would have level zones and that really svcks.

You must go south and then east early on or you'll get OHKO'd by cazadors, deathclaws and giant radscorpions. Of course you can just sneak past, but that's not really what we are talking about. It's when you actually try to confront them and kill stuff. Thus, it makes it linear (not 'in the end', but in the beginning).


I'm one of those who don't want to become the most powerful person there is, but as a result of me simply playing the game, the more I play the easier it becomes. I had a hard time killing bandits at level 1-6, but now they are very easy. Skyrim scales much better than oblivion, to the point where I only see the scaling when I encounter new enemies such as dragon priests and ancient dragons. That's a good thing if you ask me. Would it be better if you met a dragon priest in the first dungeon next to the tutorial dungeon? Or an ancient dragon attacks riverwood as you walk there at level 1? No it wouldn't, you couldn't possibly kill it without the help of a mob of guards and 'cheap' tactcis such as walking into a house and regaining HP before getting one more hit in and then going back to the house. However, you'd get`OHKo'd by both a dragon priest and an ancient dragon at level 1 so good luck with that.

Level scaling is a necessity in a game that doesn't have an end or you find yourself with a rapidly decreasing amount of content. I would much prefer the game to keep a challenge rather than 1 shot 99% of the game world at higher levels, might as well have saved myself some time and used tgm. If an open world game didn't use level scaling then guess what? You were probably being corralled into specific areas anyways, either by your inability to kill anything or otherwise. Maybe you like being able to 1 shot everything and borderline cheating but I most certainly don't. It's bad enough that mechanics promote this gameplay if you take advantage of whats available rather than being semi balanced.

And what you are asking is no progression at all, or, pseudoprogression as nothing makes any difference as the world keeps at your pace.

I ask once more, what is the point of progression if it does not happen due to the world coming along with you all the way? It's not a "JRPG-way" to top your enemies along the way even if JRPG's may (or may not, I wouldn't know, I haven't played a JRPG in a good decade) use it, there are a lot of western RPG's where you need to get better in order to progress in and complete the game.

No, it's progression.
If it's just about customizing your character, then why do you need an experience/level system ? Why artificially restrict the access to the possibilities until a later part of the game if it's not supposed to depend on the increased ability of the character ? And if the character is becoming better, then what the hell is level scaling (and hence nullyfication of the progression) doing here ?
Seems to me you're mixing up two things, and contradicting yourself - you seem to justify the "holding up" of possibilities in character abilities until a later level, but at the same time you bash the "holding up" of exploration possibilities by (vastly OVER)using the word "linear".

Also, you largely ignore how level scaling destroys immersion, which is one of the main point of having a huge "living" world to explore.
Again, you're using stawmen and caricatures, which is the reason why I'm extremely irritated at such kind of argumentation and used strong words to describe it.
It's not because there is (logical) harder places in which you stand no chance to success, that the game is "linear" with "only one path". Stop overusing this word and stop using reductio ad absurdum.
It's not because a game is free-roaming that it needs to have everyone magically stronger because one single guy became stronger. In fact, I'd say it's the opposite, free-roaming games are the WORST affected by level-scaling, because they draw their appeal from immersion, and level scaling is THE PINNACLE of a total metagaming/gamey mechanism.

Akka, I seconded that motion.

Should read as 'level scaling is awesome because it means the developers don't need to bother with balancing the difficulty'.

I guess being able to beat a dragon at level 2 with ease but getting your [censored] kicked by a rookie bandit at level 50 fills you with joy then?

Why bother with levelling at all? I mean if you're going to totally negate the point of difficulty why not just do away with it and have everything in the game the same hardness? It amounts to the same thing.

Any sense of achievement is lost when you know that all the effort you've put into levelling amounts to nothing because that big scary boss will still be as hard now as he would've been had you gone at him at level 1.

Why not have dungeons that have bosses you can only defeat at level 50? Going in and getting your [censored] kicked will give you something to aim for. To make it worthwhile you just give a far greater reward for completing. It's called giving a player a sense of progression and achievement. Finally beating that bastard boss will give you a far greater feeling if you got hammered the first ten times. There are plenty of quests to be getting on with so having some saved for later isn't a problem. Even if you have to artificially lock out areas or just give some warning that what awaits might be out of you league it's still better than just going through the motions because you know whatever lurks in that cavern has been scaled accordingly.

You have a point about the main quest being problematic but at I really don't see much of an issue. If I go away and train for fifty days I would expect to come back and kill your average king's guard because I'm now far more powerful than I was previously. If you want the main quest to be a challenge then complete it first

All level scaling does is ruin exploration for everyone who isn't concerned with the main quest. Why am I not concerned with the main quest? Because it's [censored]. Make a compelling questline and I might be tempted to complete it first. Having me kill dragons within the first hours of play is not a good way to engross me because it smacks of a cheap and forced experience. I don't want to be told I'm awesome, I want to feel awesome because of what I HAVE ACHIEVED, not what the game has artificially ensured I achieve

Edit:

And have you played Fallout 1 and 2 or Baldur's Gate or countless others? On all of those games you can follow the main quest or go open world and do side quests. On Baldur's Gate I got killed by a random witch encounter because I wandered into a cave I shouldn't have been in yet. Finger's burnt, won't be going back there any time soon

No

I haven't encountered thieves decked out in full elven either. At level 50, they still wear leather and the highest I EVER see bandits in is fur, although they might have a dwarven weapon or something on the boss.

Scaling seems pretty okay to me.

I've seen atleast three and am currently level 26. Not full elven, but with some parts.

We have two arguments, one is in favor of scaling things through more powerful areas and monsters, one is in favor of scaling the areas and monsters with you so that you can rather go anywhere you like.

Is there anyone in this thread who would argue that Morrowind does not encourage you to play it in this order: Vanilla game - Tribunal - Bloodmoon ?

And is there anyone who can say it wasn't possible to do the Shivering Isles expansion of Oblivion on level 1 ?

Now it's just a matter of which one you prefer, are you the sort that would have liked it if Bloodmoon scaled with you so that you could start on Bloodmoon at level 1, and then perhaps do the vanilla content and finish with Tribunal. Or are you the sort who feels the Shivering Isles was cheapened by the fact that you could go and do it at level 1 ?

I myself must admit I fall into the group of people who prefer it the Morrowind way, where the game basically tells you "Nope, you are not allowed to go do Bloodmoon right now, you are too low level for Solstheim, come back when you're stronger." But I can see it from the point of view of those who would rather have more freedom and would prefer to for example start with Bloodmoon and still get challenged in the original vanilla content as a high level character due to level scaling.

I don't think we can discuss this as a topic of facts because as I see it, this argument is about personal preferences.

No, I'm talking "progression" and "immersion", you answer "difficulty slider".
Yes they are about exploration, no it doesn't make level scaling a necessity, it makes it a liability.
You're mixing "level scaling" with "tuning". A game can be extremely challenging with fixed levels, and extremely easy with level scaling. Don't mix totally different concepts.

Before we can logically discuss aspects of a game and how they relate to the genre, we must first clearly define objective criteria by which we can assign the genre. To that end, an RPG element is any element of the game where the character's skills, abilities, knowledge, and power (SAKP) determines the outcome of the player's choices. If all enemies are approximately the same level and similarly geared as the character, the character's individual SAKP is relative and not finite, making them less valuable (diluted) which by definition makes the player's SAKP more important in determining the outcome of the player's choice because the player's SAKP are not relative to the enemy.

It is not a neccessety at all... Its a choice that was made. It ust means you play the game differently.

Morrowind is a prime example. That game Is fantastic. Not rubbish due to the lack of scaling. However, it wasnt superior because of it. Its just a different method.

NOT NECCESSARY FOR FUN

This.

Level scaling is an absolute must.

I was lvl 30 when I finished the companion quest and left whiterun, after spent atleast 60% of the game just exploring and doign side quests apart from companion quests.

The game is already a little too easy on adept but scales well on Expert, Master can be extremly hard. Expert I find more of "normal mode", Adept feels more like "easy".

People that dont agree on level scaling are probably used playing other games. I suggest you keep at these cause the TES series without level scaling will be utterly destroyed.
The freedom of choice is removed without level scaling.

Stop trying to find intellectual when all you are saying is that "Level scaling sux".

Even with level scaling. Did you try and fight giants in Skyrim at under lvl 10? or under lvl 20?
It was a sudden death Im sure.
At lvl 30+ I am one shotting most giants on Adept, I play expert though so I generally need to 2 shot them. They take off around 20% of my health per hit.
And thats a scaling giant.

My point is, the level scaling is not dramatic. Some monsters are much too hard at low level and becomes easier at higher level.
Its a slight level scaling, not like in Oblivian where everything scaled to your level.

No, level scaling doesn't bring anything to the game that is actually beneficial - unless you consider you should be able to do everything right off the bat, in which case the very EXISTENCE of a level system is dubious.

"freedom" is just a loaded word to try to paint a bad design under good light.
The only freedom that level scaling brings is the lack of consequences and unexpected - the only ones you'll see in Skyrim are from the part where the scaling is actually limited.
"you can go everwhere and do everything because it's the same everywhere" is not an interesting "freedom".

Boo hoo. So what you're saying is that you want to be able to see all the content at your leisure and in whatever order you want? Here's me thinking this was a hardcoe ROLE PLAYING GAME, not a fantasy game for spoilt kids. Let's look at it from the perspective of you actually being an adventurer in a big dangerous world. So Mr Rookie Warrior are you going to set out into that unknown cavern in the middle of the Earth that is rumoured to be full of ancient demon's? Yes? Wait, what? Good luck with that. If all you want from this kind of game is essentially a story you can go through at your leisure then may I suggest books

A book where a rookie guy enter a cave full of demons and kick their butt wouldn't be a very good book I think - unless it was trying to be comical.

Talk about throw your toys out of the pram. All I'm hearing is 'waaa waaa this game won't let me win mummy', 'It's ok dear just let mommy go tell teacher and make all those naughty monsters play fair'.

You mean other games have a difficulty curve? You think? Maybe that's what makes them better then...

And how does training yourself up amount to cheating?

Jesus Christ don't any of you level scaling [censored] go play Dark Souls, you'll all be swinging from your bedposts within 48 hours. If you're not good enough to beat a challenge then go away and get better until you are. If you don't fancy that there's always Spyro the Dragon

What Skyrim needs is "Area Threshold Scaling"TM. If you visit Whiterun at level 1 it should be just fine, you will find it challenging and enemies in the area will level up with you and keep the area challenging. But Whiterum at character level 30 should not be exact as Whiterun at character level 10. What I am trying to say here is the need for player to confirm his growth and confirm players (NOT HIS CHARACTER) mastery of skill required to face a challenge.

At same time if you travel to Rorikstead at character level 10, you will be massacred because that areas Threshold Scale is meant for character level 20 and above. But if you travel to Rorikstead at character level 30 (10 levels past areas intended threshold) you will still find it challenging because of level scaling.

Conclusion: Locations in Skyrim should've been separated into Major and Minor areas. When a player character at level 20 enters a major area with a threshold of 20, said area and minor areas are scaled after character level and its threshold.

• Actors level in the area should never be bellow areas scale.
  
• Actors are scaled after Player Character upon Player Character entering the Major area.
  
• Some minor areas will hold Actors close to Player Character level and some above (depending on minimum and maximum threshold of the area and players current level).
  
• Because Major area minimum threshold and PC levels are closer to each other then Major area maximum threshold and PC level, most minor areas within said Major area will hold Actors superior to player character level to provide a challenging enviroment.

Remember, games are about overcoming challenge.
If a game is not challenging, it becomes boring, if game is too difficult, players will be turned away.
Skyrim level scaling breaks much of the challenging aspects, sadly Skyrims skill system takes up fair share of the guilt.

I think you're missing the point of scaling here, which is not to make the game accessible at any time as much as keeping it challenging.

If your perspective is "I need to get better to progress", that's not something stifled by level scaling (as long as it's smart, thus applying different levels of scaling depending on how challenging the combat is meant to be: for example, a bandit outpost could be scaled to be your level -3, while a daedric prince could be set as your level +5). Once again consider that numeric aspects are a small part of the equation. A level 2 character who deals 10 damage per weapon swing may be unable to kill an enemy with several enchment that is scaled to have 100 HP, while a level 20 character with his stealth leveled up, sneak attack perks, the capability to summon an ally to distract the guards could manage to kill the same monster who has 1000 HP at his level.
TES games aren't a matter of trading blows. I play as an "overpowered" melee character and I can't rush in in boss rooms and cleave a mob after another. Yet at lower levels I could, as it was my only option. Now the game punishes me if I don't use all my tools.


If the point is "at some point I should be able to cleave through monsters like a chainsaw", well, TES games have a tradition of becoming trivial at high levels. With scaling or not.

I suppose I should stop trying to "find" intellectuals here. Too many childish Skyrim sychophants permeate this forum to the point where actual discussion is impossible.

You clearly did not understand my point and you are also injecting red herrings into the dialogue. Please reread my post and tell me specifically where I talked about Skyrim, or where I even mentioned that I own the game at all. The degree or scale of level scaling is completely irrelevant to my point.