Side with the Stormcloaks if you support:
Racism.
Xenophobia.
Oppression.
Tyranny.
Revolution.
Usurpers.
Murder.
And various other bad things. To put it simply though, the Imperial Legion is the only reason Skyrim hasn't been completely subjugated by the Aldmeri Dominion.

Talk with people in blue palace. I think the court mage is the one with the info about the king not needing to fight should he didn't want to. Talk with the thalmor embassador in the thalmor embassy about she not having fun with thalos worshipers since the war started. Don't talk with Dunmer refugees outside Windhelm since they are not. Read the four books titled something like "an incoming thread" (or somithing like that) in the thalmor embassy, about how they work.
So, your point is that Ulfric cheated? Sorry but I didn't known the rules of those combats, but it would surprise me if the sacred magic of Skyrim would be banned in them. Didn't you defeat any shouting draugr without using shouts or magic yourself?
I didn't give a crap for Ulfric, but I can't see how not professing someone faith makes you not worthy of defending the right of that person to workship what he wants without being killed. I can't see how making one part look bad can make the other part good anyway.
Different people says different things. I think the most accurate version could come from the one actually enforcing the ban before the war(thalmor embassador. Seriously, you should talk to her).
Thalmors are destroying everything and the emperor choose to not deffend hinself in order to not anger them. Bad choice. Thalmors know no mercy.

As a wood elf (or any type of elf, really), I wouldn't join the Stormcloaks. It's pretty clear thar if you weren't Dragonborn, you wouldn't even have the chance to join their movement as other than you it's all Nords. Only elf I'd join the Stormcloaks with is a Thalmor infiltrator because personally I think they're victory makes both Skyrim and the Empire weaker as long as it's drawn out with many casualties on both sides.

You can join them before you know that you're Dragonborn.

The empire was originally founded by someone with those traits. Sounds good to me.


Side with the Legion if you support:

The end of all life on Nirn.

Rebel scum at their finest!

Can't stand http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Arcturian_Heresy, huh?

To heck with the Empire! They tried to kill me!!

Talk to her again. She says that he does come, and prays for strength (I'm guessing military strength). Ulfric is pretty power-grubbing, the jury's out on whether he personally is racist (though I'm leaning towards yes), but he does care about Talos worship. The entire reason I was imprisoned in Markarth shows that.

Despite all of this, I think that if you really care about being on the most moral side, you should go with the Empire. That being said, after playing through both storylines, I will be siding with the Stormcloaks from now on. They're more fun, and the storyline itself is MUCH more interesting. I think if you are going to look at ANYTHING as black-and-white, even the character of Ulfric, you are really missing out on the story. Personally, I believe that Ulfric really does care about Skyrim and its people. He just cares about his own personal power more. We will see whether this ultimately leads to good or evil, it could go either way.

Also, I think it's odd that people are claiming that only the Stormcloaks murder people unjustly, when the first 5 minutes of the game involve the Empire attempting to execute you for no reason.

Ok i started playing as leaning towards the empire but when i had seen on a secondary character that the empire is killing people for the worship of Talos..... WTF MAN after all that happened in ES4O with Tiber Septim/Talos and the KON DLC i really dont like the empire atm

Your opinions will go back and forth. I leaned towards the Empire on my first character, but when I finished the storyline I was really disappointed and felt like I had made the wrong choice. When I went with the Stormcloaks I got a lot more satisfaction, but there are definitely downsides that will make you feel bad about your choice. No matter which side you choose, at some point, you're going to feel like crap.

hehe thanks chrysocolla... i also liked getting that captain [censored]es armor as stormcloak beginning

Funny, I only feel like crap when attempt the Imperial storyline. They grovel at the feet of elves.

My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?

So I was looking in to these claims of racism of the stormcloaks...and couldn't find it.

I talked to the dunmer first. About half are ok with the stormcloaks. They work hard and are treated well.(And are annoyed by the other half's whining) One works for Kjar the ship captain and notes that though he demands hard work, he rewards his crew well. Another notes that he and his sister work for a nord farm and doesn't have any gripes, and that his brother is ashamed of him for it. I found a http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-dunmer-skyrim in one of the other dunmer's houses.

I checked to see if any of the actual stormcloak troops around the city had racist dispositions. Amidst the mouth watering mentions of sweet rolls and the horrors of knee injuries, the guards noticed I had some goods to sell. Did they refer me to the nordic marketplace? Nope. Try Sadri's used goods they said. You heard that right, they referred me to give business to the only dark elf shop in Windhelm.

As I checked around the nordic marketplace, I noticed a high elf amongst them. I talked to her about the dark elf's condition. She noted that she didn't have it easy either when she first showed up, nords are distrustful of outsiders due to the history they've had with them. She got to know them though, and proved her service to be valuable and she had grown to become accepted.

Still, there's those argonians outside of town...so I decided to check in on them. The first one I come to says this to me immediately. "We don't like your kind around here." Take note that my character was a Breton, not a nord. Maybe he's just having a grumpy day, I talk to him again. "If you fall in the water, I'm not going to save you." Come on man, It's not like I murdered your dog or something. "Some people tend to go missing around the docks" Ooook....I think I'm done talking to him. Lets check with another one. "I hear there's a special batch of skooma in the dunmer cornerclub, would you steal it for me?" Steal drugs for you? No thanks. "Hist spit on you." What a kind fellow. The other two argonians seem alright, although I seem to recall shahvee mentioning she'd stab me in a previous game. Looks like a case of some bad apples spoiling the bunch.

I wander around outside town and come across Hlaalu farm, owned and operated by a dunmer. A nord works for him.

Unfortunately a dragon interrupted my checking in there and I had to stop my investigation.

So a drunk in windhelm who isn't even a part of the stormcloak army seems to be the one true face of the stormcloak movement to everyone. Not sure why they don't consider the imperial captain at the beginning of the game as the one true face of the imperial legion.

I always thought it odd that since Ulfric supposedly wants all non-Nords out of Skyrim, he has the largest non-human population of any settlement. It makes the idea questionable. He has more Dunmer in his city than the other cities combined.

The second largest population of non-humans is Winterhold college. Winterhold proper being Stormcloak.

Oh I forgot to mention, Ulfric doesn't care much what race you are when you join.

Galmar has concerns. He asks you why you're fighting for skyrim. You can tell him "Skyrim is home to more than just the nords" and he approves of the response.

Most of this racism thing seems to be very baseless.


Edit: I'd like to talk to them as a non mannish race though and see how much of a change there is.

I agree, Cecilff2.

I rp my character as a nord supremacist and have no qualms about doing so, however. The empire and Thalmor just make it so....easy to do so.

To hell with both sides take over the empire as the dragonborn should then handle the biggest problem the thalmor.

Ulfric is a racist [censored], but he is not genocidal. So who gives a [censored]? Do you think a country should conquer another, wipe out it armies, limit religion, ect. for those reasons? The Stormcloaks aren't calling for the blood of non-Nords, so it's something that Skyrim can fix itself. If 600 years under an Empire didn't change them, then the Empire winning won't. They need to overcome the racism problem themselves.

Vignar seems to lack the racist qualities of Ulfric, so non-Nords in Whiterun Hold shouldn't have much problem. Yeah, the Stormcloak soldiers don't buy from non-Nords, but regular citizens do. Solitude will remain as Solitude always was.

And Talos worship was only enforced after Ulfric started making a show. But here's the problem: It was underground. What kind of crap reasoning is that? "Oh, your religion is cool, you just can't do it publicly. Freedom!" No, that's not freedom.

...I'm sorry, but what? You're trying to justify Ulfric banning Argonians from the city because one of them is bitter and the other became a Skooma addict? That's racism in its purist form. You only see the full effect of Stormcloak racism if you check the city before and after Ulfric is removed from power.

Pointing towards "good minorities" who don't make a fuss about being treated poorly is modern racism 101, and it's pretty sickening to see that type of argument on these boards even if we're personally talking about a fantasy setting.

Those 4 argonians are banned. The third one steals from shipments and the last one remarked about letting her knife slip. Any other argonian is allowed free roam in the city.

Please point out examples where these oppressed people are being treated poorly by the stormcloaks. The STORMCLOAKS. Not the drunken idiot at the gate. Every stormcloak guard mentions Sadri's store. Several dunmer AND the altmer shopkeeper note that the stormcloaks aren't racist. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-dunmer-skyrim doesn't win you points with the locals.

Saying all stormcloaks are racist because of that drunks actions is prejudism in its purist form.

Exactly. Ulfric may have been an antagonist, but he has followed the way of the nord on every step. While many nords skulk and worship in ambiguity, Ulfric shouts. Works for me.

There is no moral choice in a Civil War; only which side you personally prefer. I doubt Bethesda would make one side or the other more preferable in terms of rewards.

Well, the American Civil War had a pretty clear moral choice.

I like rp'ing a "Skyrim for nords and nords alone" type of character, but that's a whole 'nother ballgame.

Now you're just lying and backtracking on your previous posts. Ulfric's ban applies to all Argonians, and that there are only 4 is a limit of the game as much as any other strangeness with regards to population. Or is Ulfric Stormcloak not a Stormcloak anymore? Did not the Altmer working the marketplace say she was being treated poorly by the Nords there? Considering that Windhelm is the seat of Stormcloak power, it's rather disingenuous to say not one of them would be a Stormcloak. Shahvee used to be a thief, and hasn't knifed anyone iirc. Scouts-in-Marshes occasionally steals from shipments but given that he and the other Argonians are being payed 1/10th the wage of a Nord it isn't surprising that he'd turn to thievery. Rather a self-fulfilling prophecy to disenfranchise a people and then point to the ways they try to survive the inequality. Neetazra(?) is, as far as I can tell, just a bitter [censored] about being .. you know... banned from the city and exploited for cheap labor.

You can repeat the falsehood that Rolf and Angorn (a former Stormcloak soldier) all you want, but anybody who isn't turning a blind eye to the evidence of Nord prejudice in Windhelm is going to realize there's a lot more going on there. Have you even touched the Legion-side of things? Heck, have you done any of the dock Argonian quests? Both of those reveal a lot more about Windhelm and Jarl Ulfric than one can learn while Stormcloaks still hold the city.