Ok, yes, I'll definitely agree with that. The Skyrim Civil war, however, isn't over anything specifically ethical. I think that's part of why it feels so weird to me. They're killing each other over things that don't carry much weight to me personally. Even if I'd had family dragged off for Talos worship, I'd be going after the Thalmor, not the Imperials that allowed it.

To put it simply. There's conflict in windhelm because historically neither side likes the other. After the night of tears and Ysgrimirs return, the dark elves started harassing them. The nords managed to remain, and then sent raiding parties of their own into Morrowind. If you think dunmer and nords are going to instantly forget about the past conflicts that's extremely naive. The Dunmer in Windhelm come from the areas that have traditionally been very anti-nord and anti-anyone else period.

Go to Riften and you'll find no issues between the races there, or to winterhold. This is because the stormcloaks aren't racist. The people of Windhelm have issues with harboring their long time enemy.



Really? Apparently only married argonians can live in windhelm is that it? Or if that argonian happened to see a dragon once. Or if that argonian is following another argonian that happened to see a dragon.

And yeah I've done the dock quests.(Except the steal skooma one)

Not I, said the fly. They'd meet me axe. And their little elves too.

And you continue to brush off the fact that Ulfric, leader of the Stormcloaks and the force behind their cause, is personally responsible for much of Windhelm's current state. Nevermind that his rhetoric and the rhetoric picked up by the Stormcloaks is entirely built around the idea that "Skyrim is for the Nords!", which combined with Ulfric's policy says quite a bit about where he wants things to go. Riften hasn't shown any issues with racism but the Stormcloaks there seem to be very different than their northern cousins, and Lalia isn't much a fan of Ulfric himself. You might as well point at Ralof as proof that the Stormcloaks aren't racist, despite him voicing reservations about some of Ulfric's policies.


You like pointing at game mechanics rather than lore a lot. Maybe we should discount the whole Talos is necessary for the continuation of Nirn thing since it wasn't implemented in the game?

If you had done the dock quest you wouldn't keep trotting out the "only racists in Windhelm are drunks!" bit you continue to pull since you'd know about Shatter-Shield.


And if Ulfric engaged in guerrilla warfare against the Thalmor I'd be much more sympathetic to him, but it seems that he goes out of his way to be as divisive and harmful to Skyrim and the rest of Tamriel as possible.

It says right in the Thalmor Dossier that Ulfric was interrogated by the Thalmor and released due to the fact he is an asset!
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-thalmor-dossier-ulfric-stormcloak

It also says that Direct Contact is still a possibility, so Ulfric is still in contact with the Thalmor and is therefore a traitor to the Empire!

All you Stormcloakers need to face facts. The Thalmor use Ulfric as a tool to weaken the Empire so they can wipe it out! You are helping the enemy and therefor have become the enemy.

My Nord struck down Ulfric and happily placed his body on the table for a sacrificial meal. He will gladly do the same to any traitorous Stormcloak he sees.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197977889191/screenshot/650998799321014520

It also says that he's uncooperative. Several times, in fact.

No, it doesn't. Do I have to actually quote stuff?! "After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact"

Ok, if that doesn't have traitor written all over it, I don't know what does. Then again, if you want to justify being a traitor, do it anyway you want. The fact remains that the Stormcloaks are an asset to the Thalmor.

I'll do it for you.

Uncooperative. Which is more than one can say for the Legion, who are entirely cooperative with the Thalmor.

Conspiracist Theory Crafting below:

It's the bit about being contacted before the Markath Incident which is starting to make me wonder if Ulfric really did opt for making the Empire his primary target because he was a Thalmor ally. First make the Jarl of Markath promise to let Talos be openly worshiped. Then genocide the Reachmen as well as anybody who so much as talked to their King. After Markath is reconquered, start making a huge deal about worship and almost immediately the Thalmor step in pressing the Empire to arrest Ulfric's militia. So instead of going after the Thalmor what does Ulfric do? Kill the High King. Makes his entire campaign focused on removing the Empire from Skyrim. Strange that.

Once he started to have a chance of winning he began turning against his Thalmor masters and wishes to claim Skyrim for himself. He's still partially working towards the Thalmors' goals but doing so on his own terms, and not being very cooperative with his former masters.

Note: Maybe a bit far-fetched, but it does seem possible. If Ulfric wants to take the fight to the Summerset Isles after he's High King, it could be to silence his former partners (or at least discredit their baseless "misinformation"). If true, this would make him a rather impressive politician.

Ulfric doesn't directly communicate with the Thalmor for obvious reasons, it would blow his cover. The Thalmor are just sitting back and watching while the Empire is weakened by the rebellion. Well, not on my watch!

Huh? Pretty sure the dunmer have been there much longer than ulfric's brief rule. He was imprisoned after the markarth incident. The Dunmer have been living in the Grey Quarter for over 100 years. Ulfric hasn't taken ANY action against other races besides the thalmor.

Skyrim is the nordic homeland. You better take offense at every other province out there too. Mede sure seems to believe the empire is for the cyrods.


Given that their emphasis on this game was to make race decisions have an impact. Allowing the PC in without so much as a fuss is a bit less than game mechanics.(Especially given how many other situations are affected by race)

Oh and the Talos thing was implemented in game. The dragons are a direct result. :/

Yep. He gave the argonians a raise when I asked him. Attitude sure makes a big difference. Both sides have to work at a relationship you know.(Sort of like how the altmer did)

Saving Talos isn't as harmful as possible, it's humanities only chance for survival. Ulfric led an army to recapture Markarth for the Jarl. His only condition? Restore talos worship. No positions, no titles, no money. Power hungry my ass. You may be confusing power hungry with intense hatred of the thalmor. If you've got a beef with ulfric it should be that his judgement could be clouded by that issue.

Ok, you found one. Where are the several?

Yeah! And the thalmor wrote that in the top-secret dossier because they knew it would be found by the dragonborn and convince him to join the imperials and end the war in an instant which goes exactly to our...oh wait...we didn't want that to happen.

The fact remains that Ulfric was in contact with the Thalmor until just after the Markarth incident. This means he actually teamed up with the enemies of the Empire to bring it down. Regardless of the fact that he decided to cut off contact with them, he teamed up with the enemy and attacked the Empire.

LOL! Exactly!

The Empire didn't team up with the Thalmor, they made a truce to spare the Empire from being totally crushed. The Stormcloaks are only aiding in weakening what remains of the Empire.

I wasn't referring to the Dunmer, who were invited by one of the previous kings. I was referring to the Argonian ban that ULFRIC implemented. Might be one of those things that Marsh talks about only after the Imperials take over the city, but he did specifically mention Ulfric being the cause.


You'd better back up that claim that Titus Mede II thinks Cyrodiil is only for Imperials. The Empire is remarkably open to other races, placing Dunmer (Cheydinnel Count) and Altmer (Ocato) in leadership roles. In Skyrim every Jarl is a Nord, though the Mer seem to be popular choices for Court Wizard. This may be a consequence of how few Nords take up magic though.


What? The lack of race impact is one of my biggest pet peeves in the game.


This is conjecture on your part. I remain unconvinced that Alduin wasn't coming back regardless of open Talos worship being banned. I haven't seen a decent argument for it at least.


And I love how that was an option, but it requires either the player being friends with him (and he does so only for the PC's sake) or being persuaded that it was more profitable (which takes care of the discrimination portion but not prejudice). That he thought he shouldn't pay them a full wage in the first place is racism.


I was talking about motivation. Unless Ulfric is versed in Nirn metaphysics, which somehow I doubt, he wouldn't know anything about the significance behind Talos's worship.

If Ulfric hated the Thalmor he could have taken the fight to THEM. He didn't. He killed the High King and made a fuss about the Imperials. Sure, he could've been honestly trying to get Talos worship reinstated in Markath (public worship that is, as NPCs say it was still going on despite treaty) but then things went awfully awry and the Thalmor began stepping up their efforts to quash it, but the cynic in me sees a political ploy with consequences which Ulfric fully anticipated.

It's an Empire. What other reason would it exist except to feed Cyrodiil's pocket?

It's sensible for an Empire to be tolerant, else it won't remain long, unless it has superior firepower that could easily take on an the rebel army. During Tiber's reign, they could barely defeat Hammerfell. What chance has the pathetic Mede Empire?

Lets dissect this statement a bit more. "After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact"

The fact that Ulfric became 'generally uncooperative to DIRECT contact' AFTER Markarth means that before Markarth he was cooperative and in direct contact.

GENERALLY uncooperative means he still is somewhat cooperative, maybe just not as much as usual, and that is only to direct contact.

So off of that statement you can say that Ulfric still communicates and cooperates with the Thalmor indirectly (probably through messengers and other means of communication).

A few things.


Simple thing is Ulfric has basically caused all the "problems" he fights against. He has set this all up to give him power so that nords can live "free" under his tyranny. Tullius is basically just doing his job... which doesn't make him good but at the very least... not as evil.

I don't know, maybe you should ask Tiber Septim why he decided to start the 3rd Empire?

That tolerance is the best policy for a unified empire should be self-apparent. Unity through being respectful and fair to other races instead of divisive over petty physical differences? No way! The Imperials were willing to relinquish positions of power, power over them, to other races. That level of trust can only be accomplished without rampant racism. Certainly there still exists racism in Cyrodiil, and the recent strong turn against the Khajiit is disappointing, but overall it's a step in the right direction compared to the regression that Ulfric represents. There's no need to start from scratch when a reformation could solve the issues of the Empire, especially when starting from scratch means causing widespread suffering that isn't necessary.

I'll check it out later. Should be able to confirm it fairly quick.


Lets give a bit of history of the past 200 years.

Martin's death signals infighting between several politicians trying to gain the throne.
Mede I and a band of mercs conquer the Imperial City and Mede is made Emperor
The Thalmor attack valenwood. The legion retreats and never again attempts to retake the Bosmer homeland for them
Red Year occurs.
Argonians secede from the empire and attack Morrowind. The empire does not attempt to stop the attacks. Most of Morrowind is massacred, refugees flee to solstheim, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil
Umbriel
Orsinium is sacked by the redguards and Bretons. Mede doesn't interfere.
The moons disappear for 2 years, Thalmor claim they brought them back. Khajiit secede from the empire. No action taken by Mede.
Mede I dies and Mede II takes over.
Ultimatum is delivered to Mede II. War breaks out.
Despite the 100 years of warning signs, the legion hasn't been maintained. The empire doesn't do very well.
Mede allows invaders to take surrounding counties. Flees IC when he is surrounded.
Red Ring.
Mede signs the concordat which pretty much screws every other province.
Hammerfall secedes.
Markarth incident. Resolved by Ulfric and Co.
Empire agrees to allow Talos worship for Markarth. Thalmor say no, Empire instead imprisons Ulfric.
Ulfric is released from jail, becomes Jarl of Windhelm.
Ulfric challenges Torygg to a duel for the throne in Nord custom, Torygg accepts and is defeated.
Despite no intervention before or during the duel, the Empire tries to have Ulfric killed. A gatekeeper is sentenced to death.
Dovahkiin and a small Stormcloak detachment are sentenced to death by the empire.

When every action the emperor takes is only in reaction to threats against the IC, I'd say the empire is mainly concerned with the IC.(This is not to say the legion is. But they serve the emperor)


http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1249697-on-boethiahs-summoning-day/

This might be a bit difficult to grasp at first. A lot of metaphysics stuff going on. It's a dev correspondance between two characters.
Edit: Here's the quote that directly mentions it



That's real life isn't it. If you never get to know someone, you never know what to really think of them. If you treat your boss with disdain he's not going to be as receptive to you.

The Greybeards are said to be the most intelligent humans in existance. Ulfric trained under them. The Greybeards know the importance of Talos quite well having trained Ysmir himself.


Hard to take the fight to the thalmor if the imperials outlaw it and try to kill you.

Power. In fact, Tiber and Ulfric more or less have the same personality. Except Tiber liked the genocide orcs and enslave his enemies. Replace Reachmen with orcs and you get Tiber. Colovia (they hated everyone else, including the eastern half of Cyrodiil) got just a bigoted as the Nords during Tiber's reign, and the Nordic racism in Windhelm only got big under Ulfric.


Untrue. Mede sent a Legion to help the orcs get to Skyrim.

Thats good to hear at least. It doesn't fully rectify the situation, but at least its a small bit of something.

I believe the summarized version of "Empire vs Thalmor relations" is that the empire is actually quite weak at this point, but is trying to rebuild and become capable of standing off against the Thalmor. As it is, a Thalmor invasion is unlikely to easily succeed whereas the Empire is completely incapable of returning the favor. Which means the Thalmor have a stronger diplomatic situation for now, which again means that the Empire has to bide it's time, play down Talos's role, and do a mad dash up the tech tree to actually become able to rout Thalmor.

What also seems to be the case is that Hammerfell is holding out as an independent region, which is presumably due to Thalmor not being willing to invest sufficient resources into invading the area and risk getting weakened by the effort and in turn become vulnerable to retribution from the Empire. Currently they're happy to further weaken the empire by playing all sorts of games and invoking internal strife whenever possible.

Unless you think that Skyrim alone is stronger than Skyrim + Cyrodiil + High Rock, it should be obvious that any kind of division is also exactly what the Thalmor wants. Notice the letter referred to earlier in this thread, concerning Ulfric Stormcloak's role as a Thalmor asset. He's not generally cooperative, which is diplomat speak for "not outright friendly", but he hates the Empire more than he hates the THalmor, which means he's more than willing to hand over Cyrodiil and High Rock on a silver platter, if it gives him a few years as sole ruler of Skyrim.

Not how the same letter says any resolution to the Skyrim civil war is to be avoided, even a Stormcloak victory which would still hurt the Empire badly. The reason is that any resolution marks an end to the constant bleeding of the Empire, potentially allowing it to get back in shape and that is of course to be avoided. The weaker the Empire is, the happier the Thalmor is.

All in all, it may sound fairly ass-backwards, but it seems like the most anti-Thalmor policy you can adobt is to actually ally with the Empire and pretend to be friends with them. And of course kill any agents of theirs whenever you have the chance. Skyrim for Nords or the entire Empire for all mankind?

By the way, am I the only one who is anticipating a huge "clash of the armies" in the next TES chapter? Bosmer, Altmer and Khajiits on one side, and an unstable alliance of Imperials, Nords, Orcs and Redguards, with the Argonians and the scattered Dunmer being jokers? I can totally envision the Thalmors using the Khajiits as fodder while the Elves are bombarding with arrows and fireballs. Meanwhile the Alliance has a vanguard of Orc and Nord heavy infantry, Breton sorcs for the bombardment, and lighter Redguard and Imperial units to skirmish and flank. Personally I wouldn't want to be a Khajiit running into that vanguard grind and I wouldn't want to be a Bosmer trying to put arrows through Orc heavies either, but the Altmer magic dominance might be the great equalizer. Then again, if the Argonians show up in force then all bets are probably off.

Could be epic, is really all I'm saying.