Morrowind Combat more realistic : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:40 am

That has everything to do with it... It's the foundation of it. The PC's training and ability with the weapon
overcome the probability that they will miss.

Well no. It was just a game of chance. Increasing your skill meant increasing your success rate at that game of chance.

Pick up a blade. I'm 100% sure you could score a hit unless you have a disability/disorder. Same as I'm sure that the damage you deal with that hit is dependent on your skill at using a blade.

You won't miss at lower skill levels. Your whacks would just be less efficient.

~Ideally... that probability changes depending on circumstance. In a game for older hardware it may just be assault their armor class (which represents the opponent's overall defense ~including armor); but in a modern 3d gameworld, the engine could also take into account the roughness of terrain, whether it's wet, whether a blunt weapon has a reduced effect on heavy leather armor (or thrust blades a greater effect)... Even magical or environmental effects can be represented and affect the PC's ability ~like unnatural "Fear" aura, or poison effects ~(anythings better than screen blur IMO :dry:

)

Damage variation depicts weapon effect in the abstract... In this case modern games really can abandon variable damage for impact force and weapon damage type. If the weapon strikes the opponent with weak force or deflects away from armor, then the game can use that as a base for damages ~and be appropriate to what the player sees on the screen.

Accuracy though is different. If one PC is a highly skilled swordsmen (or swords-woman), that PC should attack not with higher damage than a brute with the sledgehammer, but with higher accuracy and technique; and have accurate strikes cause strategic effects as well as damage bonuses in some instance. The novice swordsman may be stronger than the expert ~and might do greater damage if they hit ~under the physics model (mentioned above) they could hit by luck alone and do serious injury... but generally the expert would be hard to impossible to hit. Under the current system, they do less damage with the same weapon ~In Fallout 3 they do less damage with the same gun!

All that is far beyond the topic of this thread. That Morrowind's hit/miss dice roll is supposedly superior.

You're talking about what you'd want to see or not. Not what was actually there in Morrowind.

IMO a game that executes a standard attack swing irrespective of the PCs ability with the weapon is not as realistic as Morrowind's version of the same exact thing ~because Morrowind at least takes the PC into account. For Skyrim to match Morrowind in my thinking, the PC would have to have different attack animations for each milestone in their weapon skill such that with low skill they attack like an amateur... and the game should abandon the hit-harder model, for evaluated damage (based on the actual hit). :shrug:

Sigh..

Morrowind only had a hit/miss mechanic. Where the chance to hit was governed by the skill with a weapon. There were no milestones in Morrowind's mechanics. No accuracy issues in hitboxes. Just point and clickerdy click. It only takes the character into account in a hit/miss algorithm. There is no further deepening of character skills then that. Just hit or miss.

If anything, a "miss" should be dependent on your opponents ability to dodge. Not be the result of some sorry attempt at character skill mechanics.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:58 am

Well no. It was just a game of chance. Increasing your skill meant increasing your success rate at that game of chance.

Pick up a blade. I'm 100% sure you could score a hit unless you have a disability/disorder. Same as I'm sure that the damage you deal with that hit is dependent on your skill at using a blade.

You won't miss at lower skill levels. Your whacks would just be less efficient.

(...)

In what way is the damage you inflict dependant upon your skill?
No.
Your skill essentially affects your speed and accuracy, not the damage you deal.
If a novice thrusts a blade down your throat the damge he'll deal shan't be much different from that an expert thrusting the same blade into the same throat.
And, tell me, if a novice and an expert both shoot arrows how is the damage the arrows inflict connected to their respective skills?
It's not.
Again, speed and accuracy are the attributes affected by your skill.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:24 pm

That's a reaction to being hit by an arrow or hearing an arrow hit the wall/ground nearby, though. If an arrow hit the wall next to you I think YOU'D probably move, too. :smile:

I have many times seen NPC's jump out of the way of an incoming arrow, that they should have NO idea is even coming. I can hit them from a LONG way off, and I see them dodge my FIRST shot. I an undetected, yet, their ESP tells them they should dodge?

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:20 am

didn't like the morrowind combat as much as Oblivion and Skyrim's combat. Missing so much isn't realistic, hitting your opponents weapon is realistic. "Morrowind is better than everything-people" just piss me off tbh

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:58 pm

In what way is the damage you inflict dependant upon your skill?
No.
Your skill essentially affects your speed and accuracy, not the damage you deal.
If a novice thrusts a blade down your throat the damge he'll deal shan't be much different from that an expert thrusting the same blade into the same throat.
And, tell me, if a novice and an expert both shoot arrows how is the damage the arrows inflict connected to their respective skills?
It's not.
Again, speed and accuracy are the attributes affected by your skill.

With more skill you can put more power behind each and every strike (or arrow), and strike accurately parts of the body that would cause the most damage.

It's not rocket science to see the link between skill and damage...

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:58 am

In what way is the damage you inflict dependant upon your skill?
No.
Your skill essentially affects your speed and accuracy, not the damage you deal.

Um, that's not how the one-handed, two-handed or Archery skills work. They are the chief modifiers on how much damage you do. They go up in level as you fight using those disciplines.

Perks in each discipline also upgrade further, and can only be acquired one you reach the right level of skill.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:17 pm

With more skill you can put more power behind each and every strike (or arrow), and strike accurately parts of the body that would cause the most damage.

It's not rocket science to see the link between skill and damage...

Um, that's not how the one-handed, two-handed or Archery skills work. They are the chief modifiers on how much damage you do. They go up in level as you fight using those disciplines.

Perks in each discipline also upgrade further, and can only be acquired one you reach the right level of skill.

I'm not saying it's the way it currently is.
It's the way it should be.

@http://www.gamesas.com/user/776327-manehead/
I could be wrong, but the increase in the damaged inflicted is but marginal.
Like I said, accuracy and speed are certainly increased.

And of course locational damage - which doesn't exist as of now in TES - is tied up with accuracy.
But, in real life, I very much doubt an arrow shot by an expert will deliver significantly more damage than another arrow shot by a novice, if both arrows are of the same kind and both hit the same target area.

But I'm open for debate.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:24 pm

@http://www.gamesas.com/user/776327-manehead/
I could be wrong, but the increase in the damaged inflicted is but marginal.
Like I said, accuracy and speed are certainly increased.

And of course locational damage - which doesn't exist as of now in TES - is tied up with accuracy.
But, in real life, I very much doubt an arrow shot by an expoert will deliver significantly more damage than another arrow shot by a novice, if both arrows are of the same kind and both hit the same target area.

I believe speed (velocity at which the blade travels through the air) and accuracy ultimately results in more damage done. Just like how a skilled boxer will deliver hard, fast and accurate punches to the face compared to a novice who will land softer punches to the shoulder/torso (This does not take into account the skills of the opponent at evading the punches).

Archery damage is slightly less straight forward to explain but I tend to think that a skilled archer will be able to draw the bow back further on each shot hence delivering a harder hitting arrow, plus he may aim for the knee instead of the head, thus multiplying the damage done.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:18 am

If anything, blocking in skyrim shouldn't let allow you to take physical dmg at all, it should drain your stamina on each hit, possibly based on how much dmg in health it would do to you.

And Realistically?
Dark Souls Combat > Skyrim's Combat.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:35 am

In what way is the damage you inflict dependant upon your skill?
No.

Uhm.. It's totally dependent on it actually.

It determines how well you are able to land efficient strikes, your timing at it in fluid combat, the placing of your point of impact. It determines the the power you are able to put into each strike, your stance, your balance. All that boils down to the damage you are able to deal. I see no rocket science in that actually.

Your skill essentially affects your speed and accuracy, not the damage you deal.

And what do speed and accuracy boil down to in actual fluid combat? Right. Damage dealt. :wink:

You'll have to be very inaccurate to actually miss someone when whacking a blade. Accuracy determines where your strike lands. It totally determines the damage your strike deals on your opponent's body, it determines the effectiveness of your strike.

If a novice thrusts a blade down your throat the damge he'll deal shan't be much different from that an expert thrusting the same blade into the same throat.

A throat is a bad example anyway. It's very hard not to hit any vital parts when striking at a throat. :wink:

And, tell me, if a novice and an expert both shoot arrows how is the damage the arrows inflict connected to their respective skills?
It's not.

I shoot with a bow for sport actually.

There are many factors that determine the damage you are able to deal with a bow per arrow fired, all factors relate to your skill and experience with the bow.
- Your ability to pull the string backwards, which gives the arrow reach and momentum. (More a matter of technique than strength.)
- Your ability to keep the bow steady with a pulled string. (Also more a matter of technique than strength.)
- Your aim.
- Your ability to release the string without throwing your aim off.
- Your knowledge of where to hit a target to deal damage, which is variable.
- Your ability to predict the path the arrow will follow after being released. (Not just it's ballistic path, you must also factor in environmental effects like wind/draft, movement of the target.)
- Each bow behaves differently, as does each type of arrow.
- Etcetera

I'm not Hulk Hogan. But I can shoot an arrow straight through a door or a wooden board. Same as that I can shoot it through the keyhole from 25 meters away, while you as a novice would be hard pressed to even hit the door at that distance. And yes, that is the difference between hitting someone in the heart or hitting someone in the knee. The former being a instant kill shot, the latter (though a nice shot if intended) only reduces mobility. So in effect, that translates into the amount of damage being dealt.

Again, speed and accuracy are the attributes affected by your skill.

Clearly not. Those contribute. But those mostly boil down into the damage you're able to deal really. So what's your point?

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:53 am

The dice roll itself is random. Your chance at success increases as you increase in level, but it's basically just a game of chance. So it is partly character skill based, but only in your chance at succes, above that it is random.

In Morrowind the dice roll governed hit or miss. Not variations in damage dealt. Each hit was a full hit, minus the enemy's ability to negate damage, which was also governed by a dice roll in it's succes rate.

Off course there should be some variation in your ability to deal damage per swing, as if it were a dice roll, sure. Same as that in Skyrim death blows and critical hits are in general governed by a dice roll and your succes rate at that is governed by skill and perks. But there should always be a base damage rate dependent purely on skill, not chance.

There is a base damage rate. In Morrowind you're simply not guaranteed a hit.

I'm not sure why random chance with caps on how much you can fail is significantly different from random chance without caps. There's randomness in both systems, the latter simply allows for a wider variety of outcomes. That's something desirable, I'd say.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:23 am

I believe speed (velocity at which the blade travels through the air) and accuracy ultimately results in more damage done. Just like how a skilled boxer will deliver hard, fast and accurate punches to the face compared to a novice who will land softer punches to the shoulder/torso (This does not take into account the skills of the opponent at evading the punches).

Archery damage is slightly less straight forward to explain but I tend to think that a skilled archer will be able to draw the bow back further on each shot hence delivering a harder hitting arrow, plus he may aim for the knee instead of the head, thus multiplying the damage done.

My point could be summarized like this: the range with which the damge you inflict increases as your skill goes up is exobirtant now.
Trim it down.

Spread the effect of your skill across the variables: Speed; Accuracy and Damge.
Some weapons will get Speed and Accuracy increased the most, while others Damage.
Nevertheless, there's no way Damage increase can be, say, ten fold from Novice to Master.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:30 am

Uhm.. It's totally dependent on it actually.

It determines how well you are able to land efficient strikes, your timing at it in fluid combat, the placing of your point of impact. It determines the the power you are able to put into each strike, your stance, your balance. All that boils down to the damage you are able to deal. I see no rocket science in that actually.

And what do speed and accuracy boil down to in actual fluid combat? Right. Damage dealt. :wink:

You'll have to be very inaccurate to actually miss someone when whacking a blade. Accuracy determines where your strike lands. It totally determines the damage your strike deals on your opponent's body, it determines the effectiveness of your strike.

A throat is a bad example anyway. It's very hard not to hit any vital parts when striking at a throat. :wink:

I shoot with a bow for sport actually.

There are many factors that determine the damage you are able to deal with a bow per arrow fired, all factors relate to your skill and experience with the bow.
- Your ability to pull the string backwards, which gives the arrow reach and momentum.
- Your ability to keep the bow steady with a pulled string.
- Your aim.
- Your ability to release the string without throwing your aim off.
- Your knowledge of where to hit a target to deal damage, which is variable.
- Your ability to predict the path the arrow will follow after being released. (Not just it's ballistic path, you must also factor in environmental effects like wind/draft, movement of the target.)
- Each bow behaves differently, as does each type of arrow.
- Etcetera

Clearly not. Those contribute. But those mostly boil down into the damage you're able to deal really. So what's your point?

No.

Take Novice warrior. He swings his axe. It hits.
Take EXpert warrior. He swings his axe. It hits.

So both warriors are swinging the exact same type of axe and both warriors do not miss.
They both hit the exact same spot.

I'm saying Expert warrior would have delivered a marginally more damaging blow. Certainly, not a 10 fold nor100 fold more powerful blow.

That's what I'm saying.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:10 pm

My point could be summarized like this: the range with which the damge you inflict increases as your skill goes up is exobirtant now.
Trim it down.

Spread the effect of your skill across the variables: Speed; Accuracy and Damge.
Some weapons will get Speed and Accuracy increased the most, while others Damage.
Nevertheless, there's no way Damage increase can be, say, ten fold from Novice to Master.

I agree there are different ways the Devs could have implemented the skill/damage relationship in the game. For example they could make weapons swing faster as you skill up in them, or increase their critical strike chance, instead of increasing only damage. However, at the end of the day, however you look at it, it all equates ultimately to more damage done to the opponent.

So I guess the Devs thought they'd forego all this complexity and round-about ways of adding more damage, and just add more damage.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:31 pm

No.

Take Novice warrior. He swings his axe. It hits.
Take EXpert warrior. He swings his axe. It hits.

So both warriors are swinging the exact same type of axe and both warriors do not miss.
They both hit the exact same spot.

I'm saying Expert warrior would have delivered a marginally more damaging blow. Certainly, not a 10 fold nor100 fold more powerful blow.

That's what I'm saying.

Uhm.. You're off. Just read the post you quoted again.

Speed and accuracy result in damage dealt. Go read again. Then try again

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:42 am

No.
And.

Take Novice warrior. He swings his axe. It hits.
Take EXpert warrior. He swings his axe. It hits.

So both warriors are swinging the exact same type of axe and both warriors do not miss.
They both hit the exact same spot.

I'm saying Expert warrior would have delivered a marginally more damaging blow. Certainly, not a 10 fold nor100 fold more powerful blow.

That's what I'm saying.

The difference is, the expert warrior would have hit with a lot more force and in a part of the body that hurts a lot more. No one said they have to hit the same spot (even though this is what the animation is showing, but that's more of a technical limitation.)

Since they have taken the traditional attributes out of the game, including strength, which traditionally governed how hard you hit with your weapon, they have merged the effects of strength into the skill points system. The power with which you land a hit is now tied in with the amount of skill you have with that weapon.

Whether or not this is a better system is up for debate, but that is how it was done by the Devs.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:33 am

The difference is, the expert warrior would have hit with a lot more force and in a part of the body that hurts a lot more. No one said they have to hit the same spot (even though this is what the animation is showing, but that's more of a technical limitation.)

Since they have taken the traditional attributes out of the game, including strength, which traditionally governed how hard you hit with your weapon, they have merged the effects of strength into the skill points system. The power with which you land a hit is now tied in with the amount of skill you have with that weapon.

Whether or not this is a better system is up for debate, but that is how it was done by the Devs.

Did you actually read what I wrote?
In the example, both warriors hit the exact same spot.

The model would be something along the lines of (these are just examples, of course):

Both Expert and novice warriors are wielding the exact same axe.

1. Expert Warriors have increased speed, i. e., they're able to deliever more blows per minute.
Say Expert warriors deliver 15 blows per minute
Novice warriors deliver 10 Blows per minute.

2. Expert warriors have increased accuracy.
Of those 15 blows, Expert warriors don't miss 12. Novice warriors miss 5 out f 10 blows.

3. Expert warriros deliever increased damage.
On those 12 sucessful blows, Expert warriors deliever 10 hit points per blow. Novice inflict but 6 per blow.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:22 am

Did you actually read what I wrote?
In the example, both warriors hit the exact same spot.

The model would be something along the lines of (these are just examples, of course):

Both Expert and novice warriors are wielding the exact same axe.

1. Expert Warriors have increased speed, i. e., they're able to deliever more blows per minute.
Say Expert warriors deliver 15 blows per minute
Novice warriors deliver 10 Blows per minute.

2. Expert warriors have increased accuracy.
Of those 15 blows, Expert warriors don't miss 12. Novice warriors miss 5 out f 10 blows.

3. Expert warriros deliever increased damage.
On those 12 sucessful blows, Expert warriors deliever 10 hit points per blow. Novice inflict but 6 per blow.

I read everything you wrote very carefully and understood it, but I have a feeling this action was not mutual...

I was saying that if you were an expert warrior, your increased accuracy with weapons would mean that you will hit a more damaging part of your opponent compared to the novice warrior. This is a direct result of increased accuracy due to increased weapon skill.

Your example above is flawed becuse an expert warrior will not necessarily choose to hit the same spot as the novice. E.g. if they both swing an axe at an opponent, the novice will connect with the shoulder with lesser force and the expert will connect with the neck with greater force. Which will do the most damage?

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:49 am

I read everything you wrote very carefully and understood it, but I have a feeling this action was not mutual...

I was saying that if you were an expert warrior, your increased accuracy with weapons would mean that you will hit a more damaging part of your opponent compared to the novice warrior. This is a direct result of increased accuracy due to increased weapon skill.

Your example above is flawed becuse an expert warrior will not necessarily choose to hit the same spot as the novice. E.g. if they both swing an axe at an opponent, the novice will connect with the shoulder with lesser force and the expert will connect with the neck with greater force. Which will do the most damage?

Let's see then If I can phrase my thoughts better this time then:

Scenario #1: Locational damage is not implemented (present TES)
Since you don't have it, you account for the ?expert warrior (...) hit[ing] a more damaging part of your opponent compared to the novice warrior? indirectly, via skill. I'm saying, even if you take all the slight and not so slight differences into account, the gap between damages dealt is far far too big now. It's not like there's no difference, but that the difference is much slighter than what we currently have.

Plus, I advocate locationa damage, which is a direct way to address the issue. Thus,

Scenario #2: Locational damage is implemented (future TES, perhaps)
If locational damage is implemented then it's the player, not some character skill, who determines which body part he hits.

So in scenario #2, skill affects accuracy and acuracy partly determnes whether a blow is sucessfull or not. SOmething like this formula:

Say your skill varies from 20 to 100

Character_accuracy= (Skill/100) x 20
Probability of a sucessfull blow = 80% + Character_accuracy

Now, for each sucessful blow, the damaged imparted can be calculated like this:

Vital points (heat, throat, heart, lungs) get higher Target_area hit points.
Damage= (Target_area) x (Skill x 0.12) x (Weapon-damage)

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:06 am

That has everything to do with it... It's the foundation of it. The PC's training and ability with the weapon overcome the probability that they will miss. ~Ideally... that probability changes depending on circumstance. In a game for older hardware it may just be assault their armor class (which represents the opponent's overall defense ~including armor); but in a modern 3d gameworld, the engine could also take into account the roughness of terrain, whether it's wet, whether a blunt weapon has a reduced effect on heavy leather armor (or thrust blades a greater effect)... Even magical or environmental effects can be represented and affect the PC's ability ~like unnatural "Fear" aura, or poison effects ~(anythings better than screen blur IMO :dry:

) Damage variation depicts weapon effect in the abstract... In this case modern games really can abandon variable damage for impact force and weapon damage type. If the weapon strikes the opponent with weak force or deflects away from armor, then the game can use that as a base for damages ~and be appropriate to what the player sees on the screen. Accuracy though is different. If one PC is a highly skilled swordsmen (or swords-woman), that PC should attack not with higher damage than a brute with the sledgehammer, but with higher accuracy and technique; and have accurate strikes cause strategic effects as well as damage bonuses in some instance. The novice swordsman may be stronger than the expert ~and might do greater damage if they hit ~under the physics model (mentioned above) they could hit by luck alone and do serious injury... but generally the expert would be hard to impossible to hit. Under the current system, they do less damage with the same weapon ~In Fallout 3 they do less damage with the same gun! IMO a game that executes a standard attack swing irrespective of the PCs ability with the weapon is not as realistic as Morrowind's version of the same exact thing ~because Morrowind at least takes the PC into account. For Skyrim to match Morrowind in my thinking, the PC would have to have different attack animations for each milestone in their weapon skill such that with low skill they attack like an amateur... and the game should abandon the hit-harder model, for evaluated damage (based on the actual hit). :shrug:

for me, that's it exactly. it opens up so many more variables that can be taken into account and actual STATS that i can increase to improve my character. stats for all the variables that will CUSTOMIZE my characters combat style. then, let the computer take into account all the die-roll aspects you stated, like, weather, terrain, traits, etc.

add in dodge, parry, etc. and some quality a.i. then you have a great combo of both real-time and very realistic die-roll aspects that make combat great.