I would put my money on the Legion, but the NCR still has a chance. I would say that it largely depends on what happens outside of the dam, for example:

What happens to Camp Forlorn Hope (if Dead Sea and his crew overwhelmed it, than it would not be able to spare any reinforcements)
What happens with Camp McCarran (if fiends overthrew it, than that would drastically curtail the NCR's reinforcements).
What the BoS and people in and around Freeside do.

Even if the Legion takes the dam, the NCR can still send TONS of reinforcements to swarm the legion, perhaps resulting a another victory for the NCR
Yes I am a NCR fan and patriot

I say the courier would win.....I could easily kill NCR, Legion, Khans, Boomers....and pretty much everyone.....But if I could not then Boone would take my place.....And why are the White Gloves so important.....I do not think that they would help in anything besides maybe take the dead bodies and eat them all..... :confused:

the NCR doesn't even have enough troops to garrison their various outposts and territories across the Mojave, let alone enough to retake the dam after it was swarmed with legionaires.

The ncr don't have the troops

They arnt a bunch of worthless people though they can fight. They can hold there own.

with high ground (towers) and good guns the NCR could kill off lots of legionarys without getting killed because the legion basic weapons are melee

....

Casting fear also broadcast your forces' presents. Without knowledge of how far the Legion could have went NCR could easily have a cool head with the wrong ideas.

Caesar is an able diplomat and.....facilitator. He isn't exactly great at battle tactics or strategy or even reading the flow of battle.

Since I fought along side with the NCR either though I only need snipers to cover me from my butt while I'm mowing down the Legion like grass. However it's a real damn shame that I had to storm in just me, a BoS scribe, and a robotic dog that plays chicken [censor] in combat while the NCR hold the grounds at the damn. To tell you the truth, the Legion had [censored] me over a lot of times until I got it right. Overall, NCR got a nice weaponry and such, but the Legion are more trained than any lower rank NCR trooper.

NCR will win barely here's why.
Mccaran: The Fiends and Omerta's vs. NCR at Mccaran will still result in NCR victory. The NCR's better marksmanship will show when going against tribals. Plus the Power Armored units will provide a critical boost in body count. Even if the NCR lost the Fiends and Omerta's would be basically destroyed. In the Fiends case the Westside Milita would take care of the scraps and in the Omerta's; House or another group of Tribals. Even if the NCR loses Mccaran that doesn't mean Caeser can wtalz in Vegas because of
Camp Golf: Camp Golf is the NCR's top defensive position in the game. From it the Legion has no chance of a major offensive on Vegas. From that spot they can easily repel a Legion attack in relative safety. Add to that their network of Ranger stations that keep an eye on the North lake and the Legion can't do it. If Caeser was dumb enough to mount a major offesenive on Golf, he'd lose large numbers of troops.
Helios One: The BOS would retake it easy, but lose key members and be vulenreable to future attacks
Primm: The NCR would defeat the Powder Gangers easy, and with I-15 under their control to the Mojave they'd keep all of California too.
Searchlight: The Legion's positions like Cottonwood and Slave Camps mean they take Searchlight easy and own Southern Nevada to Nipton. They would lose SOME troops but not too many. Their largest problem would be ghouls.
Camp Forlon Hope: The legion would get owned trying to take on Forlon. The Nevada Rangers would stop any advance across the Colorado and a reinforcement of Nelson is impossible. That said the NCR would lose many troops and would be in a bad position, but the snipers will win the day there. That said Forlon would get attacked so bad reinforcing the Dam would be out of the question without Golf troops and that would take longer.
The Dam: This would be the true test, and from what I've seen of the NCR's power armored troops the Legion would kill many but the NCR would win. An artilley blast of the Legion camp, plus a massive reinforcement of Rangers from camps and if need be would mean NCR would win. Would Centrions cause trouble? Yes, would the NCR eventually regroup? Yes. THe Legion would probably hold the Dam for a day or so, but without reinforcements from the Fort they'd fall. Even with Cottonwood, if the NCR drafted more troops and put more into the war just overwhemling force alone would win the day.
Long term: The NCR no longer has Mccaran and Vegas isn't annexed. Camp Golf becomes the primaray NCR encampment in the region. The BOS would be crushed after the NCR regains resources and the Mojave chapter would be finished. The Legion would be finished after 1 year or so, and Caeser would be dead anyway. With Legate taking over I don't think it will be a stable organization, especially after they lose. In some long term sense the NCR could annex Vegas but with resources need at
Cottonwood, Red Rock, Slave Camps, Helios One, etc they'd be hard pressed.

Legion throws out their centurions and what not first. They're roughly taken down by troopers. By the time the rangers arrive, 1st recon has been mopping up the main assault. The legate may be powerful..but vs 10 rangers and 1st recon...I don't think so.

Allow me to counter, and remember this is assuming that House is dead/doesn't do anything and that the courier doesn't intervene on either side

That's what I said in another threadj surround them and cut off their supply line, that they are even bothered with the dam makes no sense.

In the battle at the dam the veteran rangers would all die without the couriers intervervention more than likely because of the reason outlined below.

Unfortunately the game has given these Veteran Rangers who are not specialized in melee combat but UNARMED combat " melee " weapons. So they may as well be throwing rocks for all the damage they'll do if they switch from ranged. I have checked all the rangers inventory's that appear at the dam and not one of them has an unarmed weapon.

Mccaran- Wait wait wait, the NCR defenses make sure they have a chance (the giantass wall). Besides that you act as if the Fiends are some well organized fighting force. Hell no they're tripped out crack heads. The Power Armored NCR troops would have a field day with them, and I honestly don't think the NCR would lose. Even if they did lose the Fiends wouldn't hold it for long. The Westside Milita would have a major advantage and I doubt they'd sit on their ass and let the weaken Fiends retake over things. As far as the Omertas go, with the Gun Runners and ammo from House's robots the Omertas would still be weaken. And if the scenario is that House is alive then they get owned by the securtons. And as far as the Khans go, that's still not a battle breaker. Whooo they control an area the NCR had little influence in anyway.
Golf- [censored] troops are the overwhemling force, but don't forget who lives inside the Camp House, the NCR's number one snipers. Even IF Caser could get troops across Mead they'd still be weaken by wave after wave of human meatbag. By the time they got to first recon they're heads would be blown off. Even if they tried from the north the Ranger stations would snipe any offensive and reinforcements from Golf would be there soon. Also elite troops aren't unlimited he'd use those for Hoover more than anything.
Helios-They'd retake it after some casulities. They don't keep it in the long term though because of...
Forlon- The way Nelson is set up next to Forlon a massive Legion offensive is impossible. The few troops would be shot down by snipers. But even then, they can't reinforce because of Ranger stations along the river. I just don't see it happening
The Dam- True morale would be lower but when it comes to live or death men have a habit of fighting hard. It's not as if peaceful surrender is an option. Plus given that Kimball the warhawk came up with the Boudler Dam plan I doubt Oliver wouldn't use artilley to prevent more Legion troops coming over. Hell all of Casers elite taking on the Dam forces will probably win, but they'd be in no position to attack Forlon to prevent a counter attack. It would be a hard offensive taking back the Dam, since the legion are already weaken, and Oliver loves overwhemling force, the day would be won by the NCR in a day or two.

Reply...

NCR even though I hate those (Censored) they would win against the Legion. The Reason, Rangers specificly Veteran Rangers that have Anti-Material Rifles.

Mccaran-That's due to the Fiends numbers and backing by the Legion. Even if in canon they'd lose that doesn't mean they didn't inflict heavy losses on them. With that said after the Mccaran massarce is always going to be spec because they didn't say how strong the Fiends were now. That said they'd be weak and easy prey. And I basically said them losing Vegas isn't that big a deal



The weaken Fiends and Omertas can't win against the Westiside, House, other tribes, Kings, and NCR rements.

Those are the human waves to distract them for the 1st recon. I've already gone over that, and if the Legion wins the Dam it's not perament nor will they have enough resources to attack Golf. And you act as if Nelson is some great offensive position. Look at the place! One NCR Ranger with a sniper could take the whole town out. If they launched an offensive they'd get stopped by Forlons snipers and even if they didn't, they would of been stopped by Ranger camps long the river anyway. How easy pray can you get than a legion solider swimming acroos the Colorado who can't shoot rght then vs. Anti-Material armed snipers.

And even if they Legion took the Dam how in the world could they muster enough forces to march all the way to Forlon? Please they'd be rerouted in a heart beat. Remember those pretty artilley aren't for show. Can you say no reniforcements?

Edit: also we've gotten past the unquestionable NCR loss of Vegas, McCarran and the surrounding areas. It's pretty clear based on in-game conclusions, as I've laid out in previous posts.

Forlon- You assume that the Legion would still have enough forces to attack Forlon. You assume that an Legion offensive wouldn't be stopped by Ranger camps which when you talk to them they clearly state they clean up almost all Legion forces that try to cross. You assume the NCR would just let the artilley go to waste. You assume that a few legion soldiers with spears could take on Rangers with Anti-Material Rifiles. You assume that despite the 100 feet cliffs the Legion could still make a good offesnive on Forlon when logic itself tells you they can't. Screw the tone, screw what random peds think, this is pure military stragety. In a conflict the Legion would lose. The pure fact is that the NCR has two major advantages. Overwhemling force, and very good snipers like the Legion has very trained force and very good melee. IN this conflict which skill set is better?
The NCR's

And if you're talking about Vegas right after the battle, sure they lose it. If we're talking about Vegas 5 to 10 years later when the NCR has fully recouped hell no. The NCR would of already taken Vegas if it wasn't for Caeser anyway. IN other thread's I've argued those troops could be better used but that's not the point of this thread.

As Patton said...."you grab them by the nose, then kick them in the ass!". By threatening the Dam, the Legion distracts the NCR from paying attention to the fact the Legion is romping through thier supply lines, using every major gang in the area except the Powder Gangers as proxies against the NCR, and eliminating or co-opting anyone who might help the NCR. The CL isn't looking to just win...they mean to completely annihilate the NCR forces in the Mojave. Without the Courier's interference it would have happened in a matter of hours.

So if I'm reading you correctly you're whole defense of the NCR winning the battle for the Mojave is that the garrisons of the scattered ranger outposts alone the cliffs, the joke of a defense which is Forlorn Hope (never thought I'd find someone who'd defend it's capabilities against a full on Legion assault from Nelson and the dam), and the idiots at Camp Golf (proven incompetence troopers and fresh out of basic recruits). If that's the case I'm gonna have to just flat out disagree. The garrison at the dam, will be routed without a hitch due to overwhelming Legion numbers, surprise attack from behind and in between NCR lines, and NCR command's idiocy. Yes, I will assume that the victorious Legion troops will have enough power to continue West and rout the joke that is Forlorn hope and Golf as well. While I have no doubt that NCR snipers are the best of the best, those dozen or so alone at the scattered ranger posts cannot defend themselves, not for long anyways.

The ironic thing about it all is the fact the Legion probably couldn't keep the Mojave in the long term anyway. Like House said, "If they kill Kimball they'll come back after licking their wounds". The NCR would be directly threatened with California now under threat. Plus it takes the Legion a long amount of time to reamass force. Hell the NCR could probably get a new round of meatsti-drafts within a few years. Even if you talk to Legate under Indepedent he notes the Legion may be streteched to thin. Hell if Oliver died more rational leadership would probably rise and in the mean time Caeser would die of the tumor. All of that together means a very bad situation for the Legion. They'd be facing the full devoted attention of the NCR, a internal power crisis, and overextention.
@Carney -Same here will respond later. Peace.

The problem with basing your Regime on a Cult of Personality is when the object of that cult kicks the bucket there isn't anything else to hold it together. Without Caesar the CL will be totally dependant on fear of Lanius to survive. And eventually he'll scare someone into assassinating him....just as more than one dictator who relies on terror to rule has done.

Your quote from Patton does not really fit here because that is not what is happening in the game.

Their focus in the game is the dam, Caesar is really pissed off at having lost it last time and he wants to win it from ncr and he sees the ncr as the first real challenge the Legion has faced. If this a ploy to keep the ncr busy while they pull the rug out from ncr they keep it well hidden in the game. Also the Legion do send their best to the dam and they do not waste these Veterans from Arizona because so few of the Legion live to make it that far up the ranks. True there are allies being gathered by Legion in the Mojave but no more than ncr are doing. So they aren't really just threatening the dam to keep Ncr occupied, or using it as a ploy, they really do want the dam because Caesar wants it, because they got their asses kicked last time.

And I am not saying that Legion do not want the rest of the Mojave at all, just that they're going the wrong way about it.

The point I am making is they are dead set on having the dam when they could conquer the Mojave without having a big battle and losing so many of their best troops there. Imagine, Oliver contacting McCarren by radio from his comfy office at the dam and finding Legion answering him. That would have been great on my Legion playthrough.