Yeah I totally agree with that - I don't think the Legion could hold the Mojave for long. My point is, however, that the NCR would lose the Battle of Hoover Dam and they'd lose big (by losing every foothold they have in the Mojave Region except for maybe the Mojave outpost).

I agree that that the Legion is dead set on taking that damn dam.

That said I'm curious as to who the NCR has on their side during the whole conflict (hell the little local towns like Goodpsings and Novac still totally reject any NCR intervention) because I doubt that it's anywhere near the amount of factions fighting against them...
You have:
-The Powder Gangers around the prison
-The Vault 19 PGs, with access to tons of explosive [censored]
-The BoS
-The Fiends
-The Kings
-The Khans
-The Omertas

My reason that they will win is this.
A. The battle for the Dam itself will be harder than you think
Dispite the Legion coming in from the sewer pipes, Oliver is already sending massive numbers of troops to the Dam. Hell even House himself said Oliver has funnel vision. That said many of the Legion's top troops will die.
B. The artilley will stop a reinforce
The only way they'd have enough force to refortify the Dam and then move on. That said artilley will ensure that's not going to happen.
C. So Forlon will stand
There's no way a few rag tag troops from Nelson will be able to mount a large enough attack to destroy Forlon. Hell like I've said before one NCR sniper could take out the whole place.
D. Nelson won't get more troops
THe fact the Legion held Nelson is a miracle within itself. And looking at the Colorado there is no way the Legion could take Forlon without having a massive number of troops left.
E. Forlon troops will take back the Dam
With the Legion weaken, elite troops killed, and Camp artilley bombed, they'd be in a bad situation and the Dam would be retaken within a day or two.

B. What artillery?

C. Legion did just fine in taking Nelson so they could very well take Forlorn Hope as well, and that sniper excuse is crap because NCR is crap within their management of troops.
If it was so easy then why haven't it been done already?
Why haven't Cottonwood been taken care of already?
Why haven't they taken care of the rest of the Legion camps already?
The snipers aren't allowed to go haywire on the place as they please, they are given orders that they have to follow, and since NCR has a very very awful command they ain't getting no sniper to these locations.

D. And how do you know that they cannot get any more troops? They seem to be doing just fine with the amount they have.
And a miracle that they've held it so long? It's not a miracle, NCR's chain of command prevents Forlorn Hope or any sniper squad from taking it over, and even if they tried then they would suffer heavy losses because legionnaires are one hell of a lot more trained than most in NCaRmy or NCRangers.

E. You're kidding me right? Forlorn has around 40 troopers all with crap equipment and crap training.
One decanus squad could take out Forlorn Hope, hell, one decanus squad did take out Nelson which was just as big.

Good morning man. Here's my reply

A. Everything that's implied by dialogue between Caesar and NCR troops is that the NCR is at the disadvantage during the battle. Oliver is taken by surprised during the battle by the Legion's tactics and the only thing that stops the soldiers coming from under the reactor is the Courier. That said many Legionaires will die for sure, but I do think that you're either ignoring the advantages the Legion has or you're overestimating what the troopers can do. Either way let's move because I think we both agree that the dam will be lost to the Legion.
B. I know you've mentioned the artillery before and I've ignored it for one reason: I've never heard anything about this artillery. Maybe I've missed something, and if I have let me know where it's mentioned+found, but not once in any of my playthroughs have the Legion or the NCR or anyone else mentioned artillery as a deciding factor of either side during the fight. I think you're using speculation here, equal to saying that "Oh the NCR will win because they have bigger guns" or something. Though again, if I missed some dialogue or a quest dealing with the artillery let me know.
C. Now assuming that the Legion will take the dam, there is no way in hell that the NCR will be able to hold Forlorn against assaulting forces from BOTH the dam and Nelson. As I've stated before the game makes the dire situation of the camp infinitely clear. Every quest in the camp deals with getting the Courier to compensate for lack of supplies or lack of troops, talking to the NPCs in the camp will reveal the poor morale and the sad state of things, the letters found around the Camp reveal the plummeting morale and lack of supplies further, Mr New Vegas talks about how [censored] Forlorn Hope is every. I believe that these facts, and they are facts, should be taken into more consideration than whether someone thinks one sniper would be able to take out a lot of troops.
D. Again, Forlorn Hope is not in any position to defend itself from a moderate force, let alone from the remaining Legion from the dam and the Legion around the area, from the Cove and Nelson.
E. Again, Forlorn Hope cannot is not in that position and to assert that the garrison of the camp could retake the dam from the Legion and Legate Lanius is crazy.

It does not fit exactly, but it conveys the basic idea. Caesar wants the Dam, but not for the same reasons the NCR wants it. For Caesar Hoover Dam is his highway to California, where the campaign that will put him into the history books will take place. The NCR wants it because the power it generates is vitally important economically and politically. If they lose it ot the Legion, it will be a major blow to the NCR's economy and doom the "War Hawks" politically. The NCR simply cannot afford to lose it. So the Legion threatens the Dam, and keeps Oliver's attention fixated on him. Meanwhile, his agents use the Khans as proxies and prepare the Omertas to strike when given the signal. I suspect Caesar is also using the Fiends as proxies, thier behavior benefits CL too much to be a coincidence. His men also harass the NCR's supply lines and create a new front at Nelson to force Oliver to divert troops from the Dam. Without the Courier's help, the NCR has no allies at all, at best the locals tolerate them. House and the BoS are the only Third Parties that have significant ground forces, so Caesar has the Courier deal with them. When all is in readiness, the NCR stands alone, politically in chaos as thier President has been assassinated, thier bases to busy fighting the CL's proxies to help each other, much less reinforce the Dam. The CL's proxies are awaiting the signal to attack thier assigned targets. When the time is just right...if you do a Legion run, Lanius tells you he has been in position for weeks and is merely waiting for the order to proceed from Caesar....Caesar makes his play and the NCR is attacked from all sides simultaneously. When his Veterans storm the Dam, the battle is already won...they are merely giving Oliver's house of cards the shove that will bring the whole rotten structure down. The Dam's garrison will be unable to hold, unable to retreat and in a matter of hours the whole Mojave Expeditionary Force will be annihilated except for what individuals manage to evade pursuit and run to Mojave Station fast enough. That sudden debacle will set the tone for the next stage, the Invasion of California, which Caesar will begin to prepare for from his new Capital. Unless the Courier helps the NCR, House or teams up with Yes-Man, of course.

very well laid out. :thumbsup:

Just a disclaimer, read all of these posts before voting, would really be handy.

NCR. They'll just use the same tactic as last time. Except instead of luring the Legion into Boulder City, it'll be Novac/Nelson/Forlorn Hope/Camp Golf/Outer Vegas. Plus Boone would take out half of them alone.

Benny would have a chance.....He would manage to kill Mr. House by teaming up with the Omertas and White Gloves and be able to take out the securitrons. There are only like 10-20 securitrons in vegas that you can see. He would disguise, somehow, as the Legion and kill the weather guards at the Fort and uprgrade all the securitrons. Then it would be an easy victory. At the end of the game, if you side with Mr. House, there are around 50-70 securtrons at the Legates camp....so easy victory for Benny.... :tongue:

About Forlorn Hope.

There is what could be called a glitch, in which 15 recruit legionaries attack Forlorn Hope and often clear it. So I think that Dead Sea (a veteran decanus) and his soldiers (a dozen or so legionaries, some veteran) could clear Forlorn Hope/

It is pretty clear that Caesar is using the fiends as distraction.

What is questionable about Caesar is why take the Dam head on when you can take Vegas and come back to it. No one ask Caesar himself to lead this encircle force, he can let Lanius, Aurelian, Inculta or even Lucius to do it.

The artillery is from the Boomers right? I could hear the sounds of artillery coming down from the sky for the entire battle....that may be the howitzer....I do not even know if this applies because none of this could have happened without the Courier interfering.

I saw a artilery gun at the fort and the boomers have some but without the courier these wouldn't be shooting anyone and I
think I saw one at the dam but I'm not shure it's artilery but with legion coming from inside the dam it's not makeing a diffrence

That only worked because Joshua Graham used old tactics and foolishly couldn't adapt to changes on the battlefield. Lanius on the other hand is already different in that he has men go through the tunnels.

Plus, do you really think they'd fall for the same trick twice?

Legion are winning in the poll

the fact that the NCR has so many votes and is so damn close just proves that a lot of people aren't thinking the situation through or reading through the thread. :facepalm:

Its an AA gun.

Out of the NCR and the Legion, only the Legion has artillery. Broken artillery, I might add.

Vegas holds no strategic value. Caesar isn't even interested in the economic value of the casinos....it's value to him is purely symbolic. The Dam, OTOH, is the one and only intact bridge across the Colorado river in the Mojave. Once he takes the Dam, he can march his entire Army across the river and establish his supply lines by road rather than relying on boats. He can also shut off power and water deliveries to the NCR and screw them hard. And once the NCR forces are annihilated, he can just walk into Vegas....only the Omertas and White Gloves (if they accept Caesar's offer) will still be alive anyhow.

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply
B. The NCR has a giant ass artilley on the Dam, doubt they'd let that go to waste. Caeser has one but is missing the part.
Skip C etc let's just cut it down to this.
Lanius isn't some amazing and great military stragetist when it comes to the Hoover Dam battle. Did he find a new way in? Yes. Does that change the fact he has a limited number of troops? No. Them coming in from the sewers still doesn't change the fact that the NCR has overwhemling force at the Dam and great defenses. Will the Dam be lost? Yes but will Caeser have enough forces to move onto Forlon? Hell no. And even if you're betting Nelson could put up a good fight against Forlon, simply consider the defenses of the base itself. Consider the sniper range that the NCR would have. The landmine death zone inbetween the Legion would have to cross. By the time they get to Forlon the troops there would lose some but would win. Despite morale, or supplies, in a fight they have the stragetic advantage and more troops than the Legion at Nelson.

So what happens then? Well the NCR would reroute forces from Golf and Forlon and the Dam would be retaken or a new stalemate would occur until more troops are sent from the NCR which they will be. All the NCR has to do is tax more and draft more. The legion has to train and enslave for years. Like I said in my first post it would be a hard fight for the NCR but I still think they'd win.

@ Tiberius 67- On a different subject if I was the Legion that was acting rationally I would say screw the Dam. For the Legion their largest advantage would be Souhern Nevada. They destoryed Station Charlie, brilliantly took out Searchlight, Established Cottonwood, and have raiding camps that can go all the way into California. I would say they should of skipped Nelson and taken Novac. That would ruin the NCR's supply lines at Golf, The Dam, and Forlon. The next thing would to be take out Ranger Station Echo which provides to much intell on Legion movements in the South. That would proabably be a very hard undertaking given their defensive but overall it shouldn't be too bad.

The Fiends, Khans, Omerta's use as proxies are good, and should be continued. With the the south taken care of I would note they shouldn't of raided Nipton but instead enslaved them for work and production. In any case the Legion raiding party on Bitter Springs should of been two focused. They had so many troops I'm sure they could of taken on Ranger Station Bravo. With Bravo gone, Bitter Springs woud fall next and basically Camp Golf would be the only thing standing The real battle would be Golf because of the NCR's 1st Recon and Hanlon's ability to lead. Regardless I would send raiding parties around the outskirts of Vegas and attack NCR held instituions, like the Farming Co-op or Allied Tech, which is under manned. With morale low the big battle would begin.

The Fiends would attack Mccaran taking the base. The Omerta's would take the Strip. Cottonwood and Novac would deploy stopping any movement by Forlon or the Dam. The BOS would take Helios. The hardest battle, Golf, would be won by overwhemling force and once inside the Centruions woudl win from melee advantage alone. After Golf I would have Legion match into Vegas and enslave them to use for labor or fighters. Forlon and the Dam would fall from no supplies, and honestly after Nelson is enslaved just strave them out. That would of made more sense than taking the Dam directly.

It's a bit hard on the eyes reading that unparagraphed so I've probably missed a few points.

Legion do have a lot of plots in place while the Ncr have none. So without the help of the courier to straighten NCR out they would lose the Mojave I agree with you there but. Talking about what would happen if these were real circumstances though and what would happen in the game between the Legion and NCR is a totally different thing. The Veteran Rangers are not equipped correctly for their class by the game. My next Legion run is going to be with the Rangers having proper gear for their skills. I'm just going to stand back and watch to see who wins at the battle for Hoover Dam. Caesar as well though like I said, he cares about the dam because of the Legions humuliating defeat last time, it's not just a ploy or a distraction to him. He strikes me as the type who go out of his way to do something not necessary and at great cost to others (his legion) to get even.

Its an AA gun. Its not the same as artillery.

Let some else make the strategic encirclement, then him can walk into the Dam unchallenged.

Tiberius67: Holding strip means you hold the heart of Mojave. While the casinos means little to the Legion, it is the homage to all in Free, North. East, Westside; and it would be final psychological blow to NCR.

And seriously, they can build raft to cross Lake Mead and Colorado on south Mojave as NCR control and monitoring is effectively lost as Camp Searchlight and Guardian are take out.

It's a aa gun plus if it was artilery what are they gonna do shot the dam with it?

I'm not commenting on what the Legion should be doing, but what the game is making them do. The battle for the dam is a big waste of resources it's not set up as a diversion while the rest of the Mojave is conquered. It should be but it's not, its the primary goal of both the ncr and legion. The topic is about who would win that particular battle.

The things that are set up for the courier to fix would have been fixed by Ncr themselves if it were a real situation. The player had to have something to do. This whole battle for the Mojave should be looked at as if all the quests for things that needed doing have already been done by the Ncr. The Legion have lost Nelson and Cottonwood Grove permanently, their plots have been discovered and foiled. Who would win then?