I liked the slavers in FO3 they were nice, gave me gifts when I every time I came to their camp and their payment for new recruits was acceptable and the enslaving part was fun to do.

Just because we help a faction, like NCR, to the end so that they "win", we still have no idea just what that will mean for the area. Even though we might help NCR take over the area around the strip, and/or the strip itself, it's very possible that the ending will have the area turn out worse or with its own unique set of problems as well as advances. This kind of thing is very much in line with Fallout where you would both have drawbacks and positive things about your actions.

I think the main thing that's holding us to believe CL to be basically pure "evil" is that we're applying our current-day mindset. But in a post-apoc wasteland, things work very differently. Not to mention, it's not only a post-apocalyptic wasteland, it's also a warzone. That's not to say the CL are not barbaric, the crucifying of enemies are a sign of that. But the way the world works (which we really should know if we read our history books and look at various wars) is that things are never black and white. Not even when they seem to be.

We don't know for sure, but I'm pretty confident that there'll be a point to CL besides being a "big bad".

The thing about this I disagree with is it is only different because we would let it be different. We assume just because there is no civil law enforcement, we can just be violent. I refuse to believe this mindset, sure I'm likely to wind up dead at the hands of a brigand for my peaceful ideal, but I'd rather die believing with a strong will we could easily make a powerful stand against barbarism like what Caesars Legion does. I think what Mr. House has done is a testament to the idea that a man can form an enclave of tranquility, I will not say his society is perfect, but it is more peaceful than the outside world.

How is crucifying barbaric? (modern mind set, contradiction much?)

If your going to have an execution, you make sure to get your point across loud and clear.....and painfully.
Tough times call for tough measures. Even in torture it you must show examples of your law and what will happen if you do not obey.

you both have a valid point. but who knows what we would actually do if this happened

we say "i would kill if i had to" but when were actually in that situation will you really have the nerve to take a life.

we all say things we would do if we were in their situation, but things like this would change us all. what we say we would do is might be totally different then what we would actually do.

if this actually happened i dont think i would be able to take it (but being raised in that situation might mean i would believe differently) as much as i would like to believe i would be a bad ass sharpshooter, i would probably end up committing suicide.

hell who her gets stressed out over school, work or relationships. think about the people you know dieing and turning against each other. think the stress you already have X1000

im starting to depress myself.

Because I have a modern mind-set of my own, and I personally find executions as well as crucifying barbaric, but that's not the point I'm making. If I were personally in the wasteland, as it were now, the NCR would likely feel like the most human option at least. But when I'm playing New Vegas, my characters will not share the same views as me, which is the point of roleplaying. Hence, even some of characters that are not even evil psychos, might feel inclined to support Caesar's Legion.

I'm not arguing my personal viewpoint vs anyone else's. I'm arguing that, if you line up different forms of government and leadership, there are good points and bad points about each one. This is what's fun about roleplaying, making up characters that have different views than my own.

And hopefully, the Legion will have enough depth to them that they feel smart in their own way, that they have their own goals besides being basically a bunch of raiders who want to kill and loot everything in their path.

Thats a fair point. I just contrast with the Legion because I've always lived in my own world. Building a huge walled off city would only be a bigger testament to this. The Strip is my ideal place to reside in a post war world.

I wasn't trying to argue with anybody. I'm just hoping against hope that when the devs say 'the either enslave or crucify most people they come into contact with' they have some [any] kind of justification. I'm fairly confident in Obsidian's storytelling ability, I just hope they aren't over-hyping their gray morality, as most video game developers do.

As do I with rolepaying.

This just reminded me of a long discussion in English class of the differences of savage and civil lives.

None are really good or bad, its all about perspective.

House is interesting but it's hard to say anything conclusive since he seems rather mysterious.

Also, as far as the NCR goes, we should also keep in mind that this is a government that are also looking to *expanding* their territory and are wanting to take control of the Hoover dam. We don't know how they handle people or settlements in their path in the Mojave area that don't want to join. Not only can they not keep their citizens safe (per the dev diary) but do they force their democratic ways on others? I guess we'll see.

There's a *lot* of potential for interesting situations in New Vegas and I really hope they capitalized on it. I hope so because Obsidian has done it well before.

For example, one of my favorite characters in Alpha Protocol is a terrorist named Shaheed who's active in the middle east. At a certain point, your goal kinda cross paths with Shaheed's and he can help you out. But at the same time, you'll be helping a terrorist who may murder people for his agenda. The whole presentation was done very well I thought, without trying to "sell" any ideas that this is good or bad. I hope New Vegas will have that "tone".

@Colonel Martyr- well you telling people about morality, but you intend to join a faction you know nothing about.

if his ideals weren't as good as you believed would you still follow him?

i am conflicted between view points.

i believe that some things are "evil" but the whether the person who does it is "evil" or not depends on why did what he did

As I understand it, the crucifixion only comes to those who push drugs, who are hoes, and miscreants. I remember there being something of that in something i read some where. However, I don't want to spoil where I heard it from.

so i assume Yo Mama was crucified.

CL isnt necesariy barbaric... i mean the romans crucified people and made people fight in arenas to the death and they were technically the most advanced civilization of their time... so yea its all a matter of perspective

Ehhh, until further notice, I see Mr. House as a businessman, he runs The Strip, and will go to any length to ensure it's survival, and so will I.

Yep, Crucifixion was used against political dissidents mostly and those who would lead slave rebellions. It was a form of punishment that made people look up and pay attention. Spartacus and all of his army were crucified along a major road out of Rome as an example of what happens to those that defy the might of Rome. It worked for a rather long time too.

Often barbaric is a word used to refer to outdated practices. Being advanced and progressive for "their time" is meaningless in any context that isn't their time. It's still outdated by a margin in the presented context.

Also keep in mind the guy running this NCR branch out in the mojave is an old soldier so he'll probrably rule it with a more military rule then Tandi or like the back stabbing officials in the NCR gov.

Some http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreyAndGrayMorality would be refreshing from the typical "good" and "evil" plots in games though personally I would't mind black and grey morality. However given Obsidians underated game Alpha Protocol use of grey morality and past writing skills I'm sure that they of all people should be able to create a game whos plot that doesn't revolve around holier then thou paladins who shoots rainbows out of their [censored] and puppy eating demons and instead have a story where picking sides actually takes some thinking based on ones on views on what is right and wrong even if those two are based on preception of the mind and are little more then abstrant concepts. /rant

how much sin? [censored]IN none i bet because of those [censored]ers at FDD or what ever they are with their game laws but they cant regulate mods hahahahahahaha

Um...okay?

I like it gray, so then you can pick whether you like darker or lighter gray more

ah who asked you

I think he's trying to say that there won't be much or any sin in New Vegas because the FCC regulates and censors games and probably censored New Vegas, but they can't regulate what people do with mods. *cue evil laughter?*

(I don't think the FCC can do anything about censoring games though, isn't that the ESRB's job?)

Yeah, but they could say [censored] and [censored] and [censored] in 3 , and what I'm writing in being censored isn't it?