Could the Dragons ever come to see themselves as equals to mortals?

Could they, under a just leader like Paarthurnax, who could have at any point durring the last 5000 years decided to embrce the old nature, but did not out of choice, not govern themselves and leave the mortals to do the same? Alduin was a fool. Paarth practically said as much. And when the Dragonborn returns to Nirn after defeating Alduin, all those Dragons flying around could have all descended upon him and ended his Saga. But they did not. One has even pledged to come when called.

If the Dragonborn is indeed the Talos of this age, with the benefit of the Dragon race returned to Nirn, he could lead Tamriel to a greater destiny than it had ever experienced before. Perhaps through his wisdom and strength he could bring about a pact between Dragon and mortal that will change everything.

The Blades heve been holding a thousands-of-years-old grudge. Alduin is what went wrong with the Dragons of old, but now it seems like they are being given a new chance. The gods did not intend one race to be superior to the other, else they would not have granted the Voice to mortals or the means to conceive of a shout like Dragonrend.

After defeating Alduin, the Dragonborn is asked what he will make of his destiny. Would he choose to be a force of good or eivil? It would seem to me that Paarthunax has the same choice, and he made it 5000 years before. Parthunax IS Alduin. Or rather, Alduin as he should have been. He has risen above his nature and embraced wisdom.

A pact between the new Talos and the Dragons might result in an agreement that each will leave the other alone. Perhaps the Dragons would depart Tamriel and go to one of the other continents of Nirn.

It's all just speculation. But at the end of the main quest, the Dragons are still there. The Empire and Stormcloaks are still at each others' throats. The Thalmor are still the enemy of the ideals of both. So the next stage of the lore is going to be quite volitile.

That's the question that needs to be answered, I guess. Maybe there isn't a middle ground, and that's why they don't give us a choice like that.

I'm not sure I see my character as Talos per se though. Unless Talos is another aspect of Shor. Because I think that's kind of what we do. Everything we seem urged to do is in defense of the mortal realm. Whether it be against the threat of Thalmor or the threat of "World Eaters".

I wish I could kill Paarthurnax after the main quest. Not because of the Blades but because I see a potential threat. Besides, I have two swords made especially for slaying dragons.

Absolutely and most certainly yes. Only the mortals might all be long dead by then.

The dragons see themselves as far better than mortals. So likely they'd never stoop to "equal in fact as well as in theory". Alduin may not be a fool - he MAY be attempting to fulfill Akatosh's word, ending the kalpa. In which case, both the Dragonborn and Paarthurnax are in effect defying the order of the ages. *shrug* I don't know, because I'm not really involved in the lore - but the likeliest thing to happen next ("next" being whatever Beth does as an xpac/dlc) is that instead of the Dovahkiin having fixed ANYTHING, no matter what her choices among/within the limits, the entirety of Tamriel is now up various creeks without any sort of locomotion at all.

I think there are things even outside divine ordination, so who knows. Even if it was Akatosh's will, there's always Sithis to break down any plans or sense of order to things. Not to mention, Shor has fooled everyone before.

I *think* there's a point at which none of the "other" gods can affect things. Can't quote chapter and verse, but probably Cecilff could. As I said, I don't get into the lore very much.

Yeah. Maybe he'll pop in.

Even Shor, it is said, isn't like the other Aedra. There's one interesting book (the Monomyth) where it says he took on more qualities of Padomay (Sithis) than the others. In everyone's pantheon (elven, redguard, whatever), he's a wildcard. The Elven section of that book is particularly interesting, because there, the mortal plane IS a realm of Sithis. Not the divines.


Sorry if I'm getting off track here. Lorkhan/Shor is just cool, that's all. Heh. The point though is, yeah, there are things outside the divine's control.

Shor is Loki/Coyote/Kokopelli. Wild card is the KINDEST thing you can say about him.

Yeah, he's like those, but also a bit like Prometheus, the Titan who stole fire from the gods and championed the cause of mortals.

Coyote/Kokopelli also stole fire in Native American mythologies. I don't remember about Loki so much now - way too many years ago....

I didn't know that. That's cool.

Weird too.... Maybe it's all true.

Comparative mythology is one of the most absorbing subjects I've ever run across. The number of congruencies across the world's cultures is staggering. And this isn't the place for that soapbox! Sorry for derailing....

It is pointless to discuss something that one sees as being out of reach like gods or immortality. It can only serve those gods and it will not change anything about your own mortality. You better ask if these immortals are truly immortal or how you can level with them.

The dragonborn is the only being who is mortal and who can level with these immortals. This is a "once in a lifetime" chance. Why waste it with pacifism?

Kill every dragon you can find and if you find a god then kill them, too. Pacifism is for mortals.

What is the worst that could happen?

No problem with me at least.

I guess to put it back on track though, I think the dragonborn, if for anything, might just as well be furthering Shor's cause too. Paarthurnax seems to find the player character interesting along these lines. I forgot his words, but he thinks we could be a counterbalance to those threads or fate or whatnot (I think it's when he asked why we would want to save the world from Alduin). Even he doesn't know what to make of the dragonborn's purpose.

Well.... all I hope is that BETH knows what to make of it. Truthfully - and keep in mind I've played every TES game beginning with Arena - Skyrim is just about the most amorphous game in the series so far....

Yeah.

Just to add to the subject, even though I like Paarthurnax, my best argument (for myself) to kill him is that he might just be like the Thalmor. Not that he's evil. But because he's sees himself as a child of Akatosh like they do. He has a more passive take than them, but it's the same message underneath. He cares nothing for this world, and ponders whether it might be better if just ended. I happen to roleplay a Nord who puts Shor at the top of his pantheon. So it's diametrically opposed to this kind of thinking. I like this world. Perhaps I should kill anyone who thinks it should end - even if they're nice and don't bother anyone.

lol.. I'm not sure if that sounds good or evil.

Well.... if this were a real world, and you were a person who lived in that world and enjoyed her life, even if that life was hard.... would you want dragons, gods, demi-gods or dragonborn deciding it was time that world ended?

I wouldn't. In fact.... I would move heavens and worlds to make sure that did NOT HAPPEN.

Yeah, in the real world, I don't kill anyone about this stuff, but do I get pissed all the same. Something about that mentality makes me fly off the handle.

In the game world, I guess that's how I see the Blades. Someone who wants everyone to shut up about fate. Esbern, the minute he hears you're dragonborn, suddenly has hope. To him, you're the guy (or gal) who can tell everyone to shut the [censored] up and actually make a difference. Damn the ominous "Last Dragonborn" prophecies. It might not be as kind as the Way of the Voice, but it's the path of mortals who wish to fight for their own place in this world. It might be ugly, but there's something good about it, in it's own way.

The Way of the Voice is kind only to those who abandon all hope for any future - accepting the "word" of someone else for that future. Now, I'm not Beth. But I AM an entity with free will.... and in playing this game, my free will has decided that I'm not going to validate either the "end of the kalpa" version OR the pacifist way version. Nor am I (in the personae of my various toons) going to enable either Tullius or Ulfric in their own stupidities as far as the disposition of Skyrim.

Of course, none of that's going to make one jot or tittle of difference - because Beth will decide what is canon, what actually happened.... but you know what? I'm on pc, and that gives me a INFINITE ability to simply ignore whatever I don't like.

Now THAT is godhood.

We are viewing Nirn as mortals, I suspect. If dragons are immortal (and yes, there's a paradox in there as well which muddies the water), then they are alien to our way of thinking. On the other side of things, there is plenty of 'proof' that there is more to existence in Nirn after death, so just what matters? If we 'kill' something, death is not the end. Even if we die it's not the end. This is why I like the Greybeards - or my take on The Greybeards, which is an equivalent of RL buddhist monks living on a mountain foregoing 'desire' - they are concerned with their own progress toward enlightenment, and are content to have the rest of the world find enlightenment in their own time. (I just don't see any substantial evidence that they wish to actively impose a pacifist view on the rest of the world). And with that view I almost see Paarthurnax as a charity case who is so out of place in the world (before this current dragon crisis) that he has nowhere else to go. In some respects he is a living anachronism before Aldiun returns.

Just what matters in Nirn? If the 'world' ends won't sentient beings still exist, since there is a blatant afterlife in TES?

Existence in that "blatant afterlife" would not at all be the same as life in Nirn as a mortal, thinking being with everyday needs to attend in my own view. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just that it's not the same thing. And since there's an inevitable disconnect between what we (as "real" people in our everyday "real" world) know opposed to what we (as inhabitants of Nirn, a fictional world with fictional experiences) would know, it's pretty hard to make a decision as to whether an afterlife (if it's floating on clouds wearing wings and a halo, or drinking forever in a meadhall - I'm just NOT interested thanks) would be better than actively trying to forge a continuing LIFE in a solid, real Nirn.

[Um. If I'm not making any sense SAY SO. I have had a very long week, and things aren't likely to be better in the coming few days. i've had a fair amount of wine tonight....]

I should add I am unable to cancel out my knowledge of reincarnation, which after much internal debate, I ended up believing in because of Azura and the Nerevarine. So if you add reincarnation there is an endless possibility of experiencing Nirn, or it's equivalent after the world has ended and been reborn, much in the way that the 'player' does anyway.

But, as a "person" (dragonborn or not) in everyday Nirn.... you don't know that. Perhaps.... if you have some family background - or some personal connection to a Divine - you might have that inkling. That's not.... germane to the point really.... The point is that most people in Skyrim most likely think the world has no end. If anyone has some idea that there's being promoted an actual end, they should be scrambling madly to NOT have that actualize. No "real" person who thought the world was going to end if people didn't DO something would simply sit there and do NOTHING.... Well, unless they were someone like my mother.

Most of us, if our real worlds were in danger of being summarily aborted, would do everything we could POSSIBLY do to avoid that outcome. I simply can't believe that the folk of Skyrim (or the entirely of Nirn...) would be any different. If the Greybeards are content to sit in Hrothgar and wait for the end of the kalpa, well, that's their choice. The rest of "us".... I don't think so.

I'm not just concerned about my own personal life/mortality in Nirn, but the idea of mortals as a whole controlling it in general. It's not about fighting to simply "live". I'm talking more about evolution on a wider scale. To set little things in motion that furthers a species. I guess? To let them be in charge of their fate and make their way in the world. Divines, daedra, dragons... they all want all supplicants and subordinates. They don't exactly care about the evolution of mortals. And as far as afterlife goes, the only one that's worth a damn is the one that celebrates that you died tried leaving the world a better place than when you first encountered it. It isn't enough to have an afterlife that encourages you to forget the world you left.