Keep it clean, folks.



There should at least be an option to lie.

"Oh, yeah, that Paarthunax fellow? Alduin killed him."

@sdack: If it pleases you any, it's just as easy to cause the quest to make Esbern and Delphine uneseential and add an optional objective to kill them both, and make the quest conclude upon their deaths.

Yet, Paarthurnax admits that it is a constant struggle to keep that desire at bay. If he knows what he is doing by now, then my doesn't he have full control over it? He's going against is own nature, and he hasn't won yet. I'm going to quote Ryuujin_0 from another thread about the same debate:

I'm going to have to say - again - that I really HATE the whole "mantling" thing that Beth came up with. It's not fun, it stinks, it's not even good role-play for most people, and as far as Paarthurnax goes, I'm not sure it applies.

Now, keep FIRMLY in mind, sdack - I'm not trying to change your mind, or anyone else's. I just always have to put my oar in. And lots of times it's not wanted, but eh - I'm nothing if not mouthy.

that is a very intresting view i personaly just like my chats with him...


what i was trying to say about the preditor point of view is that the dragons belived to be supirior to everything (like the thalmor....) and grew up with the mind set that humans are tiny and weak, we probebly helped them make that picture by worshiping such beeings, imagin it at first sight the dragons seem to be higher beeings near god like but as the opression went on the humans saw that they where simply beeing opressed.

perth went against the crushing majority of his race his people his very nature and gave humans not only his power the power of dragons but also the right to use it as they please hell he let them make secret meetings with him not utending.

Nonsense. As if this was my point. This quest is exactly what people have asked for and now they shall deal with it. If some can only think of modding around the decision then they are afraid of making it.

It is the same with the spiders and people who mod them into bears. It is hard to take such people serious without becoming a fool yourself.

I will post my nice picture here again, just because it is on the first page of the thread:

[img]http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9833/deathofpaarthurnax.jpg[/img]

The axe is an ebony axe that I forged only for the purpose of killing Paarthurnax. It deals 428 damage. Paarthurnax sat on his wall and was dead before he could rise up. He still rose up but only to fall dead from the sky and then burned up into flames.

Who doesnt have some temptation to the dark side now and then?

What's wrong with being tempted? I have friends who were hard alcoholics and really messed up their lives for a bit, but then they sobered up. That's not to say they never want to drink. In fact, they want to quite often, but they try and resist that temptation. Paarthunax might be tempted to do something very different, but all the same he's struggling to resist a temptation because he feels the outcome would be wrong.

And going along with what you quoted.
I don't think Alduin ever had any interest in humans and dragons working TOGETHER. He wanted humans to serve dragons as lesser beings. They were slaves to the dragons. Paarthunax seems to be going much more down the road for peaceful coexistence, which is very different. And while it's true that the Greybeards look to Paarthunax as their leader, he doesn't really seem to be demanding reverence or worship the way Alduin did. He seems to be content to just share the secrets of the Thu'um with people the way he's done since he rebelled against Alduin.

How about an option to destroy the Blades and claim the sky haven temple for yourself, you know, since its seal requires your blood to open anyway. I need the blades even less then they claim I don't need Paarthurnax. There's just a bunch of conjecture as to whether or not he's truly good or evil or will turn evil anyway. But he's proven himself more than the Blades have to me so that's all I need.

Something like this would be the ONLY reason I'd bother with the blades.... Sky Haven Temple is a VERY cool place.

FYI: There is a mod in the Steam Workshop that "fixes" Paarthurnax for you. I came across it just today. Go and search for it. You will feel happier.

This will be clean. Everyone knows how i feel about Paarthurnaax so im not going to repeat it.

I will say this though, many on here under-estimated and have a weird veiw about The Blades.

The Blades are FAR FROM DEAD!

Let see here, You recruited 3 Blades members + Delphine + Esbern...thats 5 members right there.

The Blades are NOT supposed to be this faction with large numbers of members....The Blades are a group that works in the Shadows, from behind the scenes, spying, intelligence gathering, etc for the Empire along with protecting the Dragonborn Emperor....just because there is no Dragonborn Emperor doesn't mean the Blades have no purposes...the Blades helped the Empire fight the Thalmor...if not for the Blades the Empire would have fell all together to the Aldmeri Dominion....

in Oblivion in Cyrodill...there was only at a max of about 10-11 Blades including Jauffree and Baurus at Cloud Ruler Temple...again this whole idea there must be 100's of Blades is innaccurate...The Blades in essence operate like a secret soceity....if everyone is a member the soceity is suddenly not a secret anymore....The Blades are alive and well in Skyim, and the blades will be instumental in The Empire defeating the Aldmeri Dominion. Also...there could be other Blades in hiding in the other provinces...im sure Delphine will be in touch with them at some point....again..the Blades will and are building their strength in secret until the time comes that the empire has another showdown with the aldmeri dominion...thats when the blades will fight the Thalmor in the shadows, but this time the Blades will get the upper hand.

Also, one last closing note:

Many of you think the Blades swore an oath to protect and serve the Dragonborn, thats NOT TRUE....The Blades swore an oath to protect and serve THE DRAGONBORN EMPEROR and his heris....BIG DIFFERENCE....In Skyrim..your Character IS NOT a Dragonborn Emperor.....he is merely Dragonborn...the Blades will help you out of tradition, but since your not the emperor they are under no obligation to help you or serve you...because your NOT the emperor...and as Jauffre points out...the blades are not an arm of the government, they serve the Dragonborn emperors...not just any old dragonborn...there is a difference.

Last but not least...who invented "Dragonrend" ?

the Answer is on Alduin's Wall.....The Akaviri Dragonguard/The Blades invented Dragonrend...the Ancient Avakiri are the ones who "translated" the Dragon Language before they followed the Dragons to Tameriel....The akaviri studied their tougue....even though they couldn't speak the words of power(because they were not gifted with the voice) they were still able to translate it...and through study they figured out that the Dragons/Alduin's only weakness was to use the Dragon tougue to render him mortal and vulnerable...The Akavair knew the words in the Dragon Tougue that had to be spoken to do this, but they needed a Dragonborn to speak them in order for the words to work.....hence the Akaviri brought the Knowledge of the words of Dragonrend and the Artifact Dragonbane to help fight this monster...

so the fact is the Akaviri were the ones who through study figured out that the words Joor(Mortal) Zah(Finite) Frul(Temporary) would rend Alduin mortal....they just needed a Dragonborn to speak them...they brought this knowledge to Felldir, Hakon, and Gormaith....thats where they learned of the Dragonrend words to shout at Alduin....the reason Alduin recognizes Dragonbane(The Akaviri artifact of legend) is because it was used against him...if you use Dragonbane against Alduin he will say "You weild the weapon of your ancestors, but you lack their strength" Dragonbane was probably the only weapon that really hurt Alduin according to lore...and the weapon is Avakviri in origin...the only way they had that weapon is if the Avakviri gave it to them...and they did lend Dragonbane to them....along with the knowledge of the words that made up the Dragonrend shout.

the Blades have done more to help the people of the Empire, The Nord Heros, and even the Dragonborn then the Greybeards and Paarthurnaax have....Paarthurnaax simply used the Dragonborn to further his own agenda.....nothing more....The Blades are aware of Paarthurnaax true intentions...they have every reason to distrust him.....

Paarthurnaax didn't give mortals the power to shout, Kynereth did...and mortals were learning to shout before Paarthurnaax decided to switch sides.....Paarthurnaax only switched sides because he wanted to usurp his brothers throne...nothing more...nothing less...a classic case of treachery....one who betrays his own brother...his own flesh and blood can not be trusted...i would never betray my own brother or sister...never no matter what it would never happen....Paarthurnaax is just a Benedict Arnold on a way worse scale....because he betrayed his own family...his own flesh a blood...a person that would do that...is more cold hearted then anyone...and could never be trusted.....

In closing...one last statement:

The Blades mission is actually an honorable one...the Blades are not fighting or killing dragons for personal glory, because they have a vendetta against dragons, or anything else...the blades are fighting and killing dragons not because its what their mission was...they are doing it because they trurly want a world to be free of the terrors of the past...a world where a child will not have to fear some dragon is going to swoop out of somewhere and eat him...a world that is truly free of terror and violence that has been wrought upon people by dragons since ancient days....The Blades are fighting for peoples freedom...Dragons MUST dominate...its all they know....trying to have a dragon not dominate would be like trying to force a Lion to eat only vegetables...its not going to happen....The blades are trying to forge a future for everyone that is truely free of fear...

The Blades hunted down and put dragons in the ground to protect the people of the Empire....thats why they were doing it....just like my brothers and sisters in uniform are protecting the my beloved USA from threats of people that would try to hurt us...the Blades are and were doing the same thing...protecting the people of the Empire from creatures that want to enslave and kill them....

as i said...allowing Paarthurnax to live is a personal choice...but its clearly obvious and he even tells you so a the end...he just used you to do his dirty work....the only way to complete his betrayal of his brother to usurp his throne was to have you do it for him....

also...notice how Paarthurnax's face is all busted up and such with his horns...that was most likely done by Alduin...to a borther who betrayed him...and even after all that...Alduin didn't have the heart to kill his own brother....even though Paarthurnaax wouldn't hesitate if the options were reversed because Paarthurnaax is a coward and a traitor....Alduin could have went right after Paarthurnaax from the get go...and he chose not to...in fact he was willing to give Paarthuranax another chance...after he was done...afterall...he is his brother....

Im sorry but anyone who would betray their own brother...their own family...their own flesh and blood is nothing but a cold hearted traitor....What Paarthurnaax done was worse then trying to steal your brothers wife....because he tried to kill him and take what he had....thats the worst part of it.

again each to their...but Paarthurnaax is a Benedict Arnold that has no honor...has no courage...his treachery knows no bounds...

You're entitled to your opinion of course, as are we all. Have to tell you though.... I DETEST my RL brother, and if I could figure out how to get rid of him tomorrow, I would. Believe me, being "family" does NOT have a thing to do with being "good people".

Did your brother commit atrocious acts? You might be associating Paarthurnax with yourself deep within your subconsciousness, when you should associate him with your brother. Do this and get rid of Paarthurnax and you will have less problems with your brother, too.

Family.... what a kick in the quad.... I get along best with my family when I'm 2000 miles away. I intend to stay that way.

What does getting rid of Paarthurnax have to do with having less problems with one's brother? Family has nothing to do with being good people.

I just look at the dragons as a means of keeping the rest of the races from tearing each other apart. Removing Paarthurnax and killing off all the dragons isn't going to bring peace and harmony to the world. Committing genocide against the Aldmeri Dominion won't either. Nor will the Aldmeri Dominion doing the same to any other race. You've still got this Daedra vs Aedra thing going on. You've still got basic greed and lust for power going on. Even if you were able to rid the world of the Daedra and Aedra the greed and lust for power would exist. It's inherent in the nature of the races. The races would worship dead gods and still fight each other and kill each other over them, or rather pretend to when the real cause was just for power over the region and over the other races and people. In this way the mer and man and beastman are no different than the dov. Perhaps the dov are there to keep the numbers of mer, man, and beastmen in check?

Meditate on that.

No. Women are there to keep men in check.

I, personally, have a difficult time justifying why Parthunaax should die at the Blades' request. I can see others' points on the opposite view, too, but I guess I believe that the old guy deserves some mercy. I mean, in the MQ, he does nothing except help the Dragonborn (despite the obvious risks, facing permanent death and all ), and asks for nothing in return. The fact the he recognizes his nature and his daily temptation is actually encouraging, as it shows the he is aware of the issue and seems to be spending a great deal of time reflecting on his inner conflict. I'd be much more concerned if he had said that he had totally concquered his nature, simply because those are the times when I think anyone is much more likely to succumb to it. But I guess it boils down to the player's opinion: Was teaching mankind how to Shout and aiding the Dragonborn sufficient payment for the crimes he did in the past? The choice is the player's, as is the justification. Regardless of opinion, I do think this was an awesome choice that Beth threw at us.

Please. I don't need quack psychology from someone who plays the same CRPG I do. I'm not ever killing Paarthurnax. And why my choice matters to you, I have NO idea.

Meh, from the start Delphine behaved like an egotistic biatch. "Surprised?" she asks when you comment that she's the one that took the horn; her intonation and connotation of "aren't I just the coolest and baddest blade evah!" made me want to slap her upside the head from the start!

One of my most satisfying moments was during my first and only run through of the MQ when I returned to Skyhaven Temple and she wouldn't shut up about me having to kill Paarthrunax, so I started Fus Roh Dahing her @ss all over the temple and the last time I did it I she was in just the right spot that she shot up and out of one of the holes in the ceiling and I NEVER saw her again in that save game again! *I did me a happy dance* and left the temple with a smile on my face!

*ponders the possibility of modding the Blades out of the main quest entirely*

I have a hard time disassociating Paarth from the bigger picture of the factions involved. It's not necessarily about me, but how I relate to the Greybeards or Blades. I'm interested in multiple characters who walk those two paths. I'm curious where it takes me later, if anywhere. And right now, I'm finding it kind of cool getting into some of the surrounding lore with Kyne, so I'll side with the Beards on this character. I have one character who's a more bloodthirsty type of Hunter, stayed a werewolf, did a lot of crappy things.. I see no reason why a person like that would start waxing philosophically about redemption or whatnot. Like he gives a flying [censored]. In a way, he's just like Alduin. A mini world eater. All I can hope for is that Beth doesn't slack off in making branching story and dialogue from these choices (in an expansion, I mean). If it all turns out unaddressed and meaningless, as most things in the game have turned out, then it won't matter what I choose.

mmm i was once also had a hard time even thinking about killing Paar, he was so cool and so nice and had an awesoem voice...BUT then i played devil's advocate one day and read a book about Paar in the old blades hideout in Oblivion. Alot of things were starting to click into place. Like one thing i had a problem with is that the blades want me to kill Paar but dont say anythign about Odahviing and then i read about the blades having dragons in their service in the past under tiber septim...then it clicked. those dragons were under the bidding of thier mortal masters , considered the humans as thier masters which Odahviing considers ur dragonborn is his new master basically, while Paar after everythigns all said and done wants to go his own way and conquer the dragons and become the new dragon king. Also there was some very interesting stuff in that book at the blades hideout if i can ever think of the name of it.

basically after all that i started seeing Paar as someone who basically is kissing my ass but has different intentions or using me to further his own. He knows im the dragonborn and to further his existence he knows its inhis best interest to play nice and can even use me to further his own plans. I still have a hard time killing him but its my own opionion that i was preventing a dangerous situation down the road. I didnt do it outta justice, i did it outta fear. Its my plans to become the next emperor, the next Tiber septim and i will get rid of every opposition and danger in my journey to that destination and to every danger/opposition to MY future country.

Incredible.

It's this kind of reasoning that sometimes scares me. A lot. Now personally I enjoy the Paarthunax dilemma in this game, but I don't feel passionately enough to argue about it online. However, I feel a lot of your 'reasoning' needs to be addressed, and since no one else has tackled it yet I will.

1) Your 'traitorous brother' anology -
I find this to be bordering on comical. The crux of your argument is that Paarthunax doesn't deserve to live because he turned against Alduin's tyranny - thereby betraying him. You say that Paarthunax is worse than his genocidal brother because he didn't go along with him.

Do you know what complicity is? If you don't then I direct you to a book called Chronicle of a Death Foretold by Gabriel Garcia Marquez - you may learn something. If you know that a crime is going to occur and you have it in your power to report / stop it, but you choose not to, you are counted as guilty as the felon himself. You say that you would never turn on your brother, regardless of what he does. Does that mean if you walk in on your brother murdering someone or disposing of the body, and he asks you to never mention it again, you wouldn't? What if he tells you he plans on murdering another innocent - will you still stay mum?

It is not cowardly to stand up to any form of evil, even if it is being committed by someone you are close to. Rather, standing up against someone you love is possibly one of the greatest forms of bravery possible. You do not become a traitor because you see the error of someone's ways and attempt to help them, or failing that, stop them, for the greater good.

Your lovely little argument:


that tries to portray Alduin in a merciful light for only slightly bashing his brother's face in = when, according to you, he should have finished the job because Paarthunax didn't agree with his tyrannical ambitions - is farcical.


2) Your 'defense by wiping them out' argument

I was almost waiting (with gritted teeth) for the US servicemen / Blades anology to come up and all too predictably it did.


Killing innocents simply because they are affiliated with an enemy is universally accepted as wrong. Women and children aren't killed, even if they shared the same opposing ideological view to you that their husband/father went to war against you for. The very thought is ridiculous, especially under the guise of 'preemptive defense'. Please tell me this was said in a tongue in cheek way or with satirical patriotism.

Paarthunax is the reason that humans exist today in Skyrim, and he has not given the Blades any reason to attack him now. Not for 5000 years. And even back then in the immediate aftermath, one could argue his redemption absolved him of past crimes. Your argument would have every last man woman and child put to the block simply because they once thought of opposing your views, or may one day go on to disagree with you. Don't think you'd get away with that in any country, mate, no matter how trigger happy they infamously are.

Any other points you want to raise?

Paarthurnax didn't turn on Alduin for any specific crimes. He was part of the whole order of dragon domination for eons. He turned because Alduin stepped over his bounds as "World Eater" and declared himself a god. It's more about the offensiveness to their father, Akatosh, than it is about human suffering. If he cared about human suffering that much, he would have never been part of it to begin with. Nor would he be mediating on high hrothgar, detached from even the Greybeards, let alone the rest of humans. He believed dragons served a purpose, and Alduin went beyond it.

I can only speculate what happened after that, but I think if there's any truth to Kyne's involvement, it's because she saw an opening in Paarthurnax's beginning stages of doubt. Then helped him, and I think eventually he saw truth in her ways. If anything, Kyne is the one who cares over all creation. Humans, mudcrabs, fleas, etc.. He's a follower of her, like anyone else.

He is a dragon with personality. But a dragon nonetheless.

Well, I think all the (named) dragons have personality. Kind of one reason why I like Master difficulty, just to have fights drawn out and I can hear more taunts. Like Sahlokinir in Kynesgrove is the first good taste of it.

"Dovahkiin! Your voice is no match for mine! You mortals have grown arrogant while I slept!"

I guess it's because of similar size, but the dragons kind of remind me of the Transformers movies or something.