hit smack on the money. yes his actions have benefited us but we are also furthering his goals to take alduins place.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

And what if your enemy got eaten by a shark? Are you going to jump into the water and hug the shark?

I also couldn't resist when I saw Delphine standing with her back to me out on their high terrace... Last I saw of her were her flailing arms ragdolling into the sunset.

As far as pre-emptive killing of Paarthurnax goes, I think I'll wait until he actually does something 'evil' in my lifetime. And since I've had a little glimpse into an 'Elder Scroll' and can see he's not scripted to do or say anything 'atrocious' I feel pretty safe. There are never enough NPCs in TES games to go killing them off unless it's absolutely necessary, anyway.

Is this a bad thing? The ending of the kalpa is a necessary thing even dictated by Akatosh. The previous alduin kept trying to make the current kalpa crap for mortals until the appointed time(Or perhaps he was going to ignore his duties altogether).

The more I think about it, the more I consider the whole thing a massive fail on the part of the writers. I think they intended for those who choose the paarthurnax side to actually be admirers of the greybeards, but it's flown right over many players' heads. What has happened is that most people who let Paarthurnax live are just anti-delphine. Not pro-Paarthurnax. Posts like the above are all over the place. Where people talk about taking out their frustration "fus ro dah'ing" delphine off of cliffs. If we were to actually take the stories seriously, even that would be abominable to the greybeards. I don't think they want characters like that on their side. They don't even want anything to do with being present at that Peace Council (because they consider the participants people of "War"). I doubt they'd be down with throwing people off mountaintops for petty reasons, using the Thu'um. Hell, one of their tablets says "Speak only in true need", not "Speak when you feel like jerking off at random." If you want to do that, the Blades are actually the better choice.

Or maybe people that think a person can be redeemed.


It does bother me that so many people seem to solve all their problems in skyrim with "kill them" though. You know what the problem is in Skyrim these days? Everyone's obsessed with death.

That's cool and all. But generally speaking, people who think someone like Paarthurnax is redeemable would think the same of Delphine. It makes little sense to say one is for redemption and then the next second, mete out an insane level of judgement on a mere [supposedly] misguided woman. Her crime is kind of small peanuts, if there is a crime at all. So when people do that, I call b.s. They're full of crap if they start talking about redemption. They have no idea what it even means.

Def agreed.

I just leave Delphine and Esbern to stew in their little fortress. If they really have a beef with Paar, they can take it up with him themselves. Actually talk to the guy you want to kill because your ancestors, who came to tamriel to kill all the dragons, say so.

The Fus Ro Dahing Delphine is just for lightheartedness on my second play through, but if you tell Arngeir that you will follow the way of the voice (which means if you follow Jurgen Windcaller's teachings you will not shout at all) he will exempt you from the 'restrictions' because it's not your destiny. I was all set to forego shouting and allow Alduin to end the world at that point, and when Arngeir basically nullified my vow to follow the Way of the Voice I was a bit miffed. That was no small offer.

If we assume that any Blades in hiding are no longer active as Blades, then 'The Blades' are really just 2 people. They may be misguided or hypocrites, but either way they are just 2 people in an outer lying province who probably have little to no real authority. Delphine's demand that you kill Paarthurnax (who she has never even met) or else The Blades (just Esbern and her) will never speak to you again is just immature and smacks of some child trying to pressure an advlt by holding their breath. Politically and strategically her tactic is weak and her attitude also works against her getting what she wants. If there is anything wrong with the writing, it's that Delphine is written as a weak, under developed character that has been too obviously designed for the player not to like.

well seeing how everyoen wants to keep paar alive is because they believe he changed his ways since hes been sittign there on a mountain meditating to supress his primal needs to conquer and right after we kill/destroy/seend alduin off on a farewell trip Paar straight up goes out and trys to dominate the dragons under the way of the voice...

It seemed to me that hes just been keeping low to gain the mortal's side since they are the only ones that have the weapon that can defeat Alduin and since likely hes been supressing his need to conquer as a sign of faith or win over the mortals as a "changed" dragon to get rid of alduin. And then right after we take care of alduin, the reason we seem to think that Paar needs another chance because hes changed goes off and does that which hes been meditating to supress and trys to dominate the dragosn and since hes the most powerful dragon after Alduin, that would basically take Alduin place in the chain of command with dragons.

So basically rightnow, all the dragons are acting on thier own will since alduin just basically busy reserecting all of them and since Paar seems to have backslide on his "im suppressing my needs to dominate", what stops him from dominating the mortals ater hes got the dragons under hsi thumb? hes got his own "dragon priest sect" and hes gonna need time to dominate all the dragons, but hes immortal hes got all the time in the world until Alduin comes back to end everything while our dragonborn dosent have an eternaty to stop paar when hes got the other dragons under hsi thumb. And also whos to say that the principles under "the way of the voice" changes strictly for the dragons to the way of the voice means the riht to dominate?

just speculation but there are stuff in the game that points to Paar putting on a fascade...especially the sole reason everythign think hes needs a second chance because hes tryingto change...he goes right back to same ol Paar the dominator right after we take care of Alduin, the only dragon that could take Paar down and also an immortal as well.


Also Paar been up on that mountai for how many years? Whats to say that he wasnt alrdy there when that other guy who started the way of the voice didnt come upon him and Paar was the one who gave him that idea to not use the voice for a weapon...A dragon teaching people to not use the one thing that can take them down as a weapon...

I doubt the Greybeards would worship Paarthunax. They revere him as their teacher, but they don't worship him now, and they definitely wouldn't if he betrayed the very teachings they live by, so that seems to negate any idea of him having a "dragon priest sect."

When Paarthunax departs to bring other dragons under the Way of the Voice, it doesn't seem to be out of a quest to dominate, so much as it is to direct. Without Alduin, the dragons are directionless, and they'll all just do whatever they want to do. Paarthunax seeks to have them go against their natural instincts by living according to the Way of the Voice. Odahving declares that as tyranny because it is a very restrictive way of life, and he doesn't think a lot of dragons will jump at the chance to adopt this philosophy.

And to answer your question as to what's to stop Paarthunax from taking over now that he's the strongest dragon. The answer is the PC. After Alduin's defeat, the dragonborn seems to be recognized by Odahving, the nameless dragons, and by Paarthunax as the dominate dovah. If Paarthunax does stir up trouble, my character is prepared to kill him. However, if I was going to just kill him as a preemptive measure, I'd have to kill Odahving too, because whose to say he's not just waiting for a chance to revert to his old ways and not be my ally anymore? I don't believe a philosophy like that is viable.

Actaully, Paar wouldnt be betrayig the teachings since the "dovahs" like the PC him/herself are exempt from the rules fo the teaching and right now, the greybeards could care less if the world ended today so being that right now they are the only ones that have the knowledge of thew way of the thuum without being Dragonborn and like i and you stated, that not all dragosn are gonna be up the 'way of the voice" so its gonna take tiem for Paar to get them all under his wings and also like i stated hes immortal, he can take his time hes got all the time in the world really until Alduin comes back. With him being the most powerful dragon right now, all es gotta do is wait til the PC dies. Plus the its very strange or weird that the guy who created the reybeards went up to the same very mountain and contemplated and came up with the way of the voice, paar has been up there ever since the other nords banished Alduin away so paar has some input in the way of the voice and starnge to seek to put the only weapon that the dragosn are scaredof as a a teaching to not use it as a weapon.

But why? People have to carry food up the hill for them. That is not a good sign. The place itself is so cold and isolated that it could be used as a prison, too. They say that a whisper can kill and this is the reason for them to live in such isolation. Still, it would be wiser not to study the Thu'um in the first place and to avoid the hazard. The less one knows about it, the less danger can come from it, which is exactly their philosophy - to keep secrets. The only explanation for their life-style I have is that they exist primarily to keep Paarthurnax a secret and possibly to keep the dragon locked away ("my preciousssss"...). The study of the Thu'um is dangerous. So why do they hold on to it? The Thu'um will help in keeping unwanted visitors away and it was used in setting up the barriers on the path to the mountain top. They seem to have a "control freak" nature about them and for a group of pacifists do they take an unusual liking in the study of hazards.

I am still on Paarthurax side. I do hate Delphine but that isn't the real reason why I am against her... I am against her, and the Blades, because they wanted me to kill Paarthurax.

Paarthurax is wise, intelligent, and old. After awhile of talking to him about many things, he sounds like he doesn't really care much for the world and I don't think he wants to destroy the world or anything like that, which Alduin wanted to do. I think he just wants to be with his own kind and not worry about fighting, and that is prolly why he wants to turn dragons onto his side. Remember what he said when you first met him? He basicly said he loves to talk but that is generally hard for him.. So I still say my guess is, he just wants peace and someone to talk to. Greybeards are like this too, they prefer to have peace and stay away from the trouble that Common Mortals creates.

As for his relationship with the Mortals and Alduin.. He prolly doesn't care much for many mortals except for the Dragonborn and maybe the Greybeards. He didn't hate Alduin and I can tell that he didn't actually want to kill Alduin. Remember at the ending he said about Alduin's defeat? Basicly, he can't celebrate Alduin's defeat because he still cares for his brother. Yes, he betrayed his brother but that is because of the whole issue of Alduin trying to become Akatosh and avoiding his destiny. If Paarthurax was truly evil then he prolly would've killed Alduin on his own as a 'back-stab' but he choose to leave Alduin and side with the Mortals and begin helping them with Shouts, and that sort...

Overall - Paarthurax is neutral. He isn't an Evil Dragon nor a Good Dragon. He just wants to live in peace and ignore the rest of the world that he doesn't bother while having someone to talk to. Personally, I am the Dragonborn and I retired from adventuring, I prolly will join him there. That mountain is nice, peaceful, and the only spot in the whole world where none of the trouble-causing-mortals can get to.

Paarthunaax is someone who's practically seen everything a sentient being can see in Tamriel, war, depravity, genocide, devastation, the old boy has seen it all, and the good, probably helped Talos with his Thu'um as well. I get the sense that he livens up around the Dragonborn because it's a sign of change, that he is seeing something different, different than even Tiber Septim among others. Not to mention the open ended, existental questions he poses the Dovahkiin, allows for him to exercise his voice in a non destructive manner, though for only limited amounts of time.

i think bethesda did a really good job inthe creation f this charector. they made the charector to "opened" that due to situations that they can go anyway they want to with him and it wouldnt be a surprise because theres enough evidence in the game that A. paar is just diseaving us or B. paar is a true "good guy" or C. hes a good guy thats does soemthign he wants to be good that turns out making him look like a bad guy.

You know? When Esbern tells me that I should kill Parthunax, I want to look him in the face and tell him "Oblivion NO!"

I want the option to say, "I will destroy Alduin. Then I'll turn my attention to the Thalmor! and when I bring them to their knees, I shall take Cyrodiil as my own. And then, Esbern, you shall serve me as your Dragonborn Emperor. Justice for Skyrim. Justice to the Thalmor. And unity again for all of Tamriel. As for Parthurnax... He has lived for five thousand years in peace. And Talos himself learned from him. Yes. Talos whom you revere became what he was, the first Dragonborn Emperor, because of the teaching and wisdom of a Dragon. So shall it be again. No. I shall not strike down the only hope for the wrongs of the last two centuries ever being put right. If you want him dead, you will have to kill me, if you can. But if you do that, who will stand against Alduin?"

That would leave the blades with a choice to make. Challenge the one who must be the champion to fight Alduin. Or get behind him and trust him to do what must be done, even if they do not like the idea of leaving an ancient Dragon alive.

The Thalmor are the real enemy. The empire is currently a puppet of the Thalmor. The Thalmor have enough power in and of themselves to crush the Empire if the treaty were to be broken.

What might happen should the Dragonborn unite Blades and Graybeards together? With Alduin dead, the Dragons would recognize the Dragonborn as an equal, if not a master. With that kind of strength, the war between the Empire and Stormcloaks could be brought to a swift end. General Tullius, aside from being a pompous ass who has no respect for local traditions, seems to be a sensible man who, if given an alternative to being a Thalmor puppet, with a potential leader with strength to actually make a difference for the Empire, might be willing to swear fealty to the Dragonborn. And Ulfric, who is just as pompous as Tullius, if recognized as High King of Skyrim by ancient Nordic tradition, with the freedom to honor and worship Talos restored, might also swear fealty to the Dragonborn who would be Emperor.

Incidentally, the current emperor has a date with the Dark Brotherhood, and i figure that this would be the case whether or not the player is the one to undertake the contract. So a vacuum in power opens the doors of opportunity wide.

Imagine what would happen should a unified Skyrim backed by the might of Dragons and a unification of Hammerfell, High Rock, Black Marsh and Eslweyr march on Cyrodiil with a Dragonborn at the head. With such a force arrayed against them, they would capitulate to the Dragonborn. Would the Aldmeri Dominion remain whole? I doubt it.

All of the choices we have in Skyrim result in us bringing division. Where is the choice to unify?

Like I said, I'd tell the blades to stick it and order them to find a way to pool resources with the graybeards, because Skyrim has been broken and the time for mending is long overdue. And after Skyrim, the rest of Tamriel...

I have a feeling that when the first extension of the storyline gets released, Parthurnax will end up dead whether at the player's hand or at the hands of one of the Blades. I mean really. You think the Blades don't need the Dragonborn? You think they will let the player's reluctance to do the deed stop them? They'd send one of their own to do it, claim it had to be done, and continue to try to guide the Dragonborn on a path that would see an end to their greatest enemy and the greatest threat to all of Tamriel: The Thalmor...

I would just like to have the freedom to tell the blades that I have no intention of killing Parthurnax and they can either get behind me or bare steel and let me bring them to their knees.

G. B. Jackson.... I LIKE YOU. Thanks. That was a GREAT post.

I'd like to vote for you as Emperor.

@ Serethil & Abrinth

Thanks.

Does anyone else feel like the Skyrim main quest end as a cliffhanger rather than as an open-ended story where whatever happens after is up to the player like Morrowind and Oblivion?

I think that Bethesda is not going to be done with this chapter of Elder Scrolls lore for a while. Even the endings of the Stormcloak and Imperial Legion faction storylines feel the same way. Like if you just wait a few days, Tullius/Ulfric will send a courier bearing a letter of summons, thus starting the next leg of the respective faction story.

And I really wish that there was a neutral storyline to play which if followed would result in neither Tullius nor Ulfric dying, but rather both of them sitting down at a negotiating table on either side of the Dragonborn in High Hrothgar with the Blades and the Greybeards attending.

I mean really. The Empire has no real love for the Thalmor. Neither do the Stormcloaks. There was no Dragonborn Emperor for the last 200 years. So the Empire, by dent of that, was weak and ripe for the pickings. Even the Champion of Cyrodiil, heroic though he may have been in his role as Kingmaker to Martin Septim, would not have been a strong enough leader even if the Elder Council were to have declared him Emperor. But now a Dragonborn is on the scene. Should he yoke the strength of a unified Skyrim, with the power behind him of Dragons who have no choice after Alduin's death but to acknowledge Dovahkiin as an equal at the very least and their leader at the most, he could destroy the Aldmeri Dominion, though it would be a hard-fought and extended campaign.

I really do hope that Bethesda continue's the Dragonborn's saga...

I read a rumor that the title "Dawnguard" has been registered. Perhaps that is the next chapter, where our character has proven himself as Dragonborn to the Nords, must prove himself to be the "Dawnguard" who fulfills someone else's prophesy.

Kind of like in the Wheel of Time, Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn to the wetlanders, the Car'a'carn to the Aiel, the coramoor to the Sea Folk, the hero we play could be Dragonborn to the Nords, Dawnguard to the people of Hammerfell or one of the other provinces. One person filling many roles and being a balance point of all of them...

Just a random thought.

I actually am wondering if perhaps Esbern is a servant of the Thalmor. Think about it. He wants Parthurnax dead. Yet Talos himself would not have reached his potential without his guidance. The last thing the Aldmeri Dominion needs is another Talos, which is exactly what Dovahkiin potentially is if he were to receive the same wisdom and guidance from Parthurnax. Maybe Esbern is not a willing servant, but when we first meet him he doesn't seem right in the head. What if they did something to him. Planted the concept in his mind that Parthurnax must die. Just saying...

I hope to god (or gods) that it's a cliffhanger, and not merely open ended.

I kind of lack some faith in that idea though, seeing more and more how they've written quests all through the game. It's as if someone is in charge who doesn't give a crap about telling any kind of basic story. Someone who thinks it's appropriate to take a quick and dirty approach to everything.

edit: I hate to be harsh. Sorry. The game is still good for other reasons.

This is the most salient point anyone's ever brought up yet. Apparently there's no answer....

Just to add, I think I'm angry just "in general", because a lot of stories are being told like this in the past several years. TV shows like LOST and Heroes go nowhere except in an endless purgatory of cliffhangers, and games get released half-done and only completed in DLC. Book series are not mere trilogies or quadrilogies, but 20 volumes now. The most original thing someone could do at this point is tell me a [censored] simple story.

For the record, I am all for a long, continuing saga of stories set in Skyrim, or surrounding the character we created in Skyrim. And I don't mind paying for DLCs to get each installment, as long as they are individually priced significantly cheaper than the core game. No more than $10, for example. And I do not mind them ending with a feeling that there is more to come.

My biggest regret about Oblivion is that its only storyline expansions did not answer the question of "what happens next," as in where does the player go after the main quest, but rather just layered the Shivering Isles and Knights of the Nine storylines in with the main plot of the Oblivion main quest. If it was me, I would have waited to start Shivering Isles a few gamedays after the player is presented with his Imperial Dragon Armor and formally recognized as the Champion of Cyrodiil. And I would have set Knights of the Nine to wait until at least a gameday after the completion of Shivering Isles.

In this way, the game as a whole would feel like it is going ever forward in a linear progression of overall events while the player remains fully free to move about as desired.

So I would like to see them do this with Skyrim's DLC expansions.