I have the limited edition guide book. In it Caesar and the Legion's origin are given. The Legion are scum. It is all so he/Caesar can be a great man. He has Followers of the Apocalypse killed on sight as they could tell that he copied the idea of Caesar and did not make it himself. Anybody who knows the truth have their heads severed and placed on poles.

Anybody who disagrees with him are killed. Slaves are brutalized. The soldier class can do whatever they want to slaves. Speaking with NPCs in game gives info too. Siri will tell you it is the same in New Mexico as the Mojave. Lucius tells you the the same old story about what happens when his tribe and Lanius' tribes were taken. The Legion are the largest Slaver/Raider "tribe" in the Fallout world. The NCR are Caesar's Carthage, the Colorado is his Rubicon, and Vegas will be his Rome. In addition to that, you get fame from these guys by ripping a girl's teddy bear in half. CL are asses.

With House, the 100 year thing is when he expects to colonize other worlds. Many things will have to be fixed before that can happen.

You dont see any legion cities in Mojave dosnt mean there arnt any. You see the invading forces of the legion, not the buildings or the beaurocracy.

Quite true. The Legion doesn't actually imitate the Roman empire beyond the attire and the terms/names. For one, Rome didn't begin as an empire. It was a kingdom, then a republic, and only then an empire, and Caesar doesn't look like someone who plans to go through the Republic phase. The NCR is indeed more reminiscent of the Roman Republic come empire than the Legion.

Which is just the logical fallacy of argument from ignorance, since there is a complete lack of evidence for that

There's plenty of evidence against it, since Caesar is really really clear about the tribal structure of the legion, which completely rules out all of that

Sorry, but that's because it pretty much is, they never have an actual argument behind their rhetoric besides some excuse about how this toughens people up or something

I ran the NCR and Yes Man endings last night and in the latter case chose to talk Lanius down, and at one point he mentions how letting the war happen would be a good thing for the NCR because "..it would make them stronger by culling the weak and leaving the strong to continue fighting". This and a comment he makes in his war tent if you choose to back the Legion make it pretty clear that all the Legion cares about is if you are strong and willing enough to fight on their behalf, and if you aren't, then you are either enslaved or killed.

Interestingly enough, you can prod some of the leaders about the slavery and they admit/suggest (it's hard to tell) they don't really care for it, however they go on to say that it is necessary for the strength of the Legion and then refuse to discuss the matter further. A couple of them hint that they don't exactly agree with Caesar's policies, but if you press them on the matter they get all bombastic about 'doing the will of Caesar', and I chose not to press further as doing so would probably have provoked hostilities, which I did not want on that character.

While I doubt I will back the Legion again since they make me take out the BoS, whom I like, I will say that if you are going to you should act accordingly from the start, rather than doing as I did and using a save I'd made prior to choosing a side (I was grinding completion achievements), as that felt unsatisfactory to me after I was done due to some of the end comments not making sense relative to the outcome.

To do this, you start by chatting up Vulpes Inculta in Nipton, and then heading for Cottonwood Cove where you can get some work as well as enable the submitting of NCR dogtags for cash and Legion fame. There won't be much to do for the Legion quest-wise unless/until you advance the MQ, but there are some NCR quests you can work in the Legion's favor and if you are careful about it you can take out the NCR's forward bases without losing rep with them. Of course you might want to lose rep with the NCR, but they do offer the most quests so it might be wise to at least keep them neutral for a while. Since the Legion despises gambling you would want to avoid The Strip as much as possible, only going there if a quest requires doing so. Any quest involving a lesser faction's alliance should be worked out in favor of the Legion whenever possible, and if they refuse, expunge them.

I had planned to do this with a Melee/Unarmed character, since that's how the Legion fights, but the end quests soured me on backing the Legion again, so that character will go the Independent route instead as it has the most flexible options in terms of what you do with/to a given faction.

You could choose yourself, that way you dont have to take orders from anyone but you.

Um, Ceaser actually says that he has cities of his own. He says he has nothing like new vegas but i think new vegas is one of a kind.

The Mongols had cities they conquered too, but that doesn't make them anything like the civilization builders the Romans were

Wasn't the Mongolian Empire 4 times the size of Rome's?
But yeah the Romans brought civilisation (well, for the time) wherever it went, the Mongols were fairly advanced and tactically excellent but didn't have the technological brilliance of the Greeks erm I mean Romans, cos they didn't nick it or anything....


I do wonder what the actual cities are like, a ruthless war engine is one thing but what happens afterwards? I guess he isn't keen on technology or medicine but security and liberty? Do they still abuse their slaves? Are women still inferior? Do bandits exist past the front? etc.

I want to know now...

The point is Mongols themselves were hardly builders of civilization, a large empire doesn't imply that they are builders but conquerors

The Legion isn't necessarily exactly like the mongols. I'm sure they don't have architecture and education like the Romans, but they do have more civilized places farther east. What you see in the Fort and Cottonwood Cove is a MILITARY camp. Slaves haul things, people are VERY close to Caesar himself, so they don't dare disobey him. People back east could be a bit nicer to women, as they aren't as afraid of Caesar's wrath that far east. They're like a mixture of Mongols and Romans.

First of all the Roman legions did bring civilization with them. The Roman Engineering corp were themselves great builders who helped build roads and other infrastructure which still stand today.

And most of your post is basically argument from ignorance, since we basically lack evidence on what the legion is like in the east. And the little evidence we do is from Caesar who...isn't exactly the most unbiased source.

I think we're ignorant of the whole thing. As has been said we have literally only seen the very front of Caesar's...'empire'... Who knows what it's really like inside? I mean maybe the roads are less patrolled without the military nearby, without their support but with their taxes it devolves into something worse than within the NCR where at least prospects exist. Women are still abused and slaves are everywhere, with persons being enslaved for 'transgressions', or as the soldiers feel like it.

Maybe it's a well organised haven, with no raiders, minimal issues with drugs etc due to harsh laws and few slaves. Women are better treated and progress is slow but present.

We just don't know. If I had to assume I'd guess the former, Caesar appears to be a misguided man, he has made sound decisions but makes foolish ones as well, I'd be surprised if he was a competent ruler of peaceful areas.



Also yes the roman empire were beneficial and I always think of Life of Brian's "What have the Romans ever done for us!" skit.

You say my post is an argument from ignorance, but you lack just as much knowledge as me. I just think that on common sense, an entire civilization wouldn't want to base themselves on military, as military is merely a PART of civilization. It's highly unlikely that any civilization, no matter how backwards, would have military camps posted every few miles across whole states. That's not civilization, that's not what Caesar wants with the legion, or else what would he do after he's won all the territory he wants? Yes, he says he's the god of war, but it's ignorant that a whole civilization would be just military! Your post has just as much guesswork as mine.

Good people don't describe how they love putting slave collars on people "Just tight enough" so that their neck bulges
around the collar, so whenever the wearer swallows or turns their head, the collar pinches in their neck
and reminds them that they are wearing the collar and are slaves.

Just paraphrasing that Legion Guy you interrogate at Mcarren AFB

Good people dont tell you to beat up prisoners of war when it is illegal. And afterwards she takes sick pleasure out of it and pays you. Anyway its simply impossible that everyone in the legion is evil slavers. Thats like saying everyone in nazi germany was evil and hated the jews

For the region as a whole, the choice is between Legion or chaos.

The corrupted cleptocratic bureaucracy of the NCR can't keep order. According to one of the loading screens, they're not even interested in doing so.
House only cares what goes on in the Strip and is quite happy to leave the rest of the Mojave to rot.
The Legion can and will suppres outlaws and raiders, keep order and ban drugs and alcohol, but at a hefty price.

It's one of those morally ambiguous choices that there isn't any clear-cut answer to. Which is the point of the game.

I never laid a hand on the guy, he cracked without me hitting him at all.
How many heads on spikes does the NCR have around their camps?
How many crucified people does the NCR have on makeshift crosses?

I think it's ridiculous that people are actually arguing that the Legion is "Good",
there is nothing "Good" about the legion, they assimilate, and as explained in the game,
they force people from other tribes to interbreed to remove their identity.

They are as so overzealous and righteous that they actually believe the atrocities they commit
are "Good".

It's war. It's scare tactics. It's not the definition of the bloody Legion!
Just because a damned military force is in Nevada doesn't mean that every person in Arizona supports enslaving women, torturing people, and actions of war!
:swear:

I'd argue that getting something new out of the game isn't about endings, after all those decisions are made fairly late on and then the game ends, making a new experience is about creating a very different player profile and making different decisions as the game goes on.

I'm like the poster, I just can't side with the legion and for me playing as anything but a basically good character isn't much fun so if I was to create a radically different game it would have to be by, say, making a character with very little strength and agility but very high intelligence and charisma or very high physical attributes and low intelligence etc rather than the balanced one I usually go for.

Dictatorship they don't support something they're killed off. Plus don't say anthing about Arizona because we know nothing about it other then what is said in NV which said their roads were safe. Could mean merchants or in gerneral.

As to who the OP should side with.. I suggest playing every major faction at least once to understand where they stand. I personally prefer the NCR to House.