Which side to choose? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:27 pm

But if you follow the Yes Man quest line, he becomes more self assertive. He programs the Securitrons. Skynet 2281 follows.

only at the end, and it's uncertain whether he is or not. Mr. House left this program as insurance that he could at least partially entrust that someone with actual knowledge and abilities could run the Strip, so he figured that the robot could learn a new program in order to have decent leadership abilities.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:24 am

They are evil, in the sense of the world. A definition of Evil from Dictionary.com:
1.
morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2.
harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3.
characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4.
due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5.
marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

1.) They are morally wrong, they kill people they don't like. They have Values, but not the right ones.
2.) This is what DEFINES the Legion. They do evil deeds like crucifying people and burning them alive.
3.) The yare characterized by suffering, they bring death and destruction everywhere they go.
4.) The yhave an evill reputation caused by the above actions.
5.) This is the on quality that they don't meet. They are not angry, in fact they are very level-headed and calm about things, but they carry out terrible action and as such are deemed as evil.

All my own opinions, feel free to argue yours. I just took a dictionary and compared it to the Legion.

1. NCR is not exactly saints either.
2. Depending on personal perspective one could consider some of their laws "evil".
3. NCR makes it's own people suffer due to taxes and valuing the rich above the common folk.
4. Again, depends on perspective, but I'm guessing Khans wouldn't exactly call NCR good.
5. Lots of the people in the NCR are angry about their government or officials or laws.

If Legion is to be considered evil then so is NCR.
Maybe Legion is a tiny bit "more" evil, but evil is still evil.

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:41 pm

1. NCR is not exactly saints either.
2. Depending on personal perspective one could consider some of their laws "evil".
3. NCR makes it's own people suffer due to taxes and valuing the rich above the common folk.
4. Again, depends on perspective, but I'm guessing Khans wouldn't exactly call NCR good.
5. Lots of the people in the NCR are angry about their government or officials or laws.

If Legion is to be considered evil then so is NCR.
Maybe Legion is a tiny bit "more" evil, but evil is still evil.

I didn't quote this, but you said "The Legion isn't chaotic evil". IMO you're right. But they are very much Lawful Evil.
As for the NCR, if one wishes to continue with D&D allignments, IMO NCR is Lawful Neutral, with some leaders leaning toward good, some being corrupt and leaning toward evil. The problem with the NCR is they are being imperalistic long before they have the strength to expand out from California. They basically bit off more they can chew by securing the Hoover Dam to help power their nation, and then finding that they are stretched too thin, the way I see it anyway. Look at the frequent complaints of every outpost commander at every camp. They need more troops, and they need more that aren't just recruits.

Having said that, IMO the sins of the Legion are still much greater then the sins of the NCR, although yes they did mistreat the Great Khans. The Great Khans aren't exactly saints, but they aren't horrid. (To continue to use D&D allignments, I'd put them True Neutral).

My personal take on each faction. This will be short:

Yes-Man: Well, YOU become the dictator. You could mean well, you could be a tyrant so it's pure RP. Plus there's the factor of Yes-Man becoming Skynet and/or Hal 9000. He may come back after becoming "more assertive" just simply that, have a bit more backbone. But he may come back and send a dozen Mk 2 Securetrons on your tail too.
House: Well meaning, but a complete despot and although he does have a grand plan, he isn't seeing the individual in his grand plan. I don't think if let's say Goodsprings or Primm were to say "Screw you House, we're independent" that he'd send a half dozen Securtrons out to waylay the town. In fact if memory serves he sends Victor back to Goodsprings to watch over it. But at the same time, people are pawns to him too, if someone stood in the way of his major plans to control and run New Vegas, he'd have no issue getting rid of them. He's obsessed with his plans, period. And his plans for the most part, with only some exceptions don't take into consideration anything much outside of New Vegas either. (If memory serves he sends Victor back to Goodsprings due to them helping the Courior, not due to any desire to protect the town past that).
NCR: As stated above, they are perhaps well meaning but they expanded WAY too soon and are spread way too thin.
Legion: A tyrant that thinks he has the right to rule, period. And thinks his way is the only right way. Caesar doesn't want to listen to opposing viewpoints, he just wants people to agree. And will try to rule period, regardless of what it takes. I can't see how anyone can call any faction willing to set up a lottery, winner lives, second place lives but with their kneecaps busted in, rest enslaved or killed, one burned alive on a pyre made of tires only "less moral". That's just evil. Even if many in the town I'm thinking of were Powder Gangers, whom are very far from being saints obviously.

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:41 pm

I didn't quote this, but you said "The Legion isn't chaotic evil". IMO you're right. But they are very much Lawful Evil.
As for the NCR, if one wishes to continue with D&D allignments, IMO NCR is Lawful Neutral, with some leaders leaning toward good, some being corrupt and leaning toward evil. The problem with the NCR is they are being imperalistic long before they have the strength to expand out from California. They basically bit off more they can chew by securing the Hoover Dam to help power their nation, and then finding that they are stretched too thin, the way I see it anyway. Look at the frequent complaints of every outpost commander at every camp. They need more troops, and they need more that aren't just recruits.

Having said that, IMO the sins of the Legion are still much greater then the sins of the NCR, although yes they did mistreat the Great Khans. The Great Khans aren't exactly saints, but they aren't horrid. (To continue to use D&D allignments, I'd put them True Neutral).

My personal take on each faction. This will be short:

Yes-Man: Well, YOU become the dictator. You could mean well, you could be a tyrant so it's pure RP. Plus there's the factor of Yes-Man becoming Skynet and/or Hal 9000. He may come back after becoming "more assertive" just simply that, have a bit more backbone. But he may come back and send a dozen Mk 2 Securetrons on your tail too.
House: Well meaning, but a complete despot and although he does have a grand plan, he isn't seeing the individual in his grand plan. I don't think if let's say Goodsprings or Primm were to say "Screw you House, we're independent" that he'd send a half dozen Securtrons out to waylay the town. In fact if memory serves he sends Victor back to Goodsprings to watch over it. But at the same time, people are pawns to him too, if someone stood in the way of his major plans to control and run New Vegas, he'd have no issue getting rid of them. He's obsessed with his plans, period. And his plans for the most part, with only some exceptions don't take into consideration anything much outside of New Vegas either. (If memory serves he sends Victor back to Goodsprings due to them helping the Courior, not due to any desire to protect the town past that).
NCR: As stated above, they are perhaps well meaning but they expanded WAY too soon and are spread way too thin.
Legion: A tyrant that thinks he has the right to rule, period. And thinks his way is the only right way. Caesar doesn't want to listen to opposing viewpoints, he just wants people to agree. And will try to rule period, regardless of what it takes. I can't see how anyone can call any faction willing to set up a lottery, winner lives, second place lives but with their kneecaps busted in, rest enslaved or killed, one burned alive on a pyre made of tires only "less moral". That's just evil. Even if many in the town I'm thinking of were Powder Gangers, whom are very far from being saints obviously.

Well I went by the definition google brought up there but in terms of D&D alignment then yeah you're pretty spot-on.
Still, I don't consider Legion to be truly evil.
What they do isn't exactly "good" things but if they reach their goal then their actions will have been justified IMO.
So basically, evil now, good later. And I'm focusing on the 'good later' part rather than just focusing on their current actions.
I don't support slavery, torture or sixism IRL for example, but in the Fallout world? It might be necessary for these actions to take place if something better can grow from it.
And looking at House and NCR is see little reason as to think why anyone "but" Legion would be best suited for the job.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:50 am

To be brutally honest, all the outcomes feel patchy and sparse. Nothing feels fully fleshed out..it's almost as if they got so far in the end-stage planning and suddenly got rushed for time and had to cut content.

Spoiler

If the Courier goes for the gusto, he comes across as a jerk and a petty puppet to a sinister A.I.

If House wins out, he becomes an undead menace that is slowly losing whatever spark of humanity it ever had.

If the Legion wins out, military force provides stability at a barbaric cost in life and limb for a few short decades before internal corruption and politics causes the main legion forces to split into battling factional groups under various commanders.

If the NCR wins, the entire area is violently and abruptly subjugated to martial law and relegated to the status of 'Colony', and it's few remaining resources mercilessly plundered at the cost of it's people.

Where's the 'and the TRULY GOOD HEARTED lone wanderer set off into the desert depths' ending that has ALWAYS been the hallmark of a Fallout game?

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:29 pm

I admire the discipline of the Legion, not something you can find anywhere in the NCR. No chems, no gambling, no prostitution.

I agree that their methods are brutal, but they don't crucify or kill you unless you are their enemy or you have done something they consider "bad".

For example, the mayor of Nipton at the very least (I have no idea what the people of Nipton have or have not done) double crossed people for his own profit, and the Legion punished him. Indeed, the punishment was brutal and morally wrong, but it was effective. As proof that they don't attack just anybody, the Legion doesn't attack you when you just start the game as an unknown courier. Even Caesar wouldn't have known how great you would become, so he couldn't have ordered his Legionaries not to attack you, but they didn't attack you all the same.

IMO, what the Legion needs to prevent them from becoming a raging evil army is good leadership, not in terms of morality, but in terms of ability. Caesar is able to keep the Legion disciplined and his tactics are destroying the NCR in the Mojave. However, if someone as brutal as Lanius gains control of the Legion, they may start becoming "chaotic evil".

EDIT : I agree with what Marcus of Jacobstown said, that the Legion would fall apart without Caesar. That is why they need someone good enough to replace him in the future, and that person is you! :tongue: (If only...)

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:24 pm

Well, if you really want it

OK, here's my interpretation of the NCR before and after:
Before:
-> Lawless scavenngers and bandits roam, terrorizing peaceful settlements such as Goodsprings
yes the NC did great work keeping order, look at that correctional facility, oh wait they didnt do a very good job at all.
-> There is literally NO LAW, and as such people live in a Dog-Eat-Dog world.
And that would change if the legion took control, even house, eventually.
-> There is no unified currency, so traders are virtually useless as one person could take paper money and one could take bottle caps, and yet another could take teddy bears or hugs
And the same for the ncr
-> There is no map or charted area, so people can wander aimlessly looking for one location, and be heading in the wrong direction the whole time
No, there is a map, people can easily tell you where a place is, and no one wanders around lost.
-> Animals ravage the area often, causing the death toll to rise more than it does by bandits and theives
Not really, and the ncr gets yo to clear them out.
After:
-> Besides granting all of the above, the NCR also provides unification of the land, which makes some people feel more secure
no, the ncr invades, and takes over if people dont listen theyh are punished
-> Possibly bring more technology into the Wasteland
No, thier only technology is salvaged, they are parasites, they haveent built anything only leached of others.
-> An Army that regularly patrols the area, bringing some sort of law.
They hire the courier to do everything becaue thier army cant. Do the main quest and ignore any sidequests, that is how compitent they are, you must do everything.

The NCR doensn't do much in my opininon, their form of government isn't fit for the Wasteland.

Someone said they dont kill people:

Mr House, what crimes did he commit, oh right not handing the strip over to the ncr.
Have Arcade fight for NCR they thank him by life in prison.
The khans dont assimilte to thier will they die.
Same for boomers.
Same for BoS.
Bittersprings anyone ?

I could drag a forbiden subject here to make a point, im just going to be vauge so I dont get in trouble and say NCR is saying "For democracy" while invading for resources, and it is resources, like Isaid they want the strip house dosent hand it over they have him assassinated. All because he wouldnt bend over packwards for the ncr, even though he isnt after thier territroy, he just dosent like them schemong to steal the strip, which is what happens. He gave them an embassy, not good enough.

If you havent played fallout 2 enjoy this snippet

The expanding Republic considered Vault City a fantastic candidate for inclusion into its growing organism, however, offers of joining were repeatedly declined, with Vault City preferring to stay independent. With no progress being made on the diplomatic side, the NCR Congress approved a secret initiative intended to force Vault City to join. The person selected to carry out this campaign of terror against Vault City was John Bishop of New Reno, who employed mercenaries to act as raiders and regularly attack Vault City to eventually force it into NCR's hands. In return, Bishop was guaranteed the status of congressman and concessions for the annexed New Reno.

Better than the legion ? I think not. Democratic ? No, greedy ? Yes. Sounds familier well look at nev vegas and you tell me has it changed. (if you said no then you are correct).

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:19 am

Generally, I consider the NCR the least of three evils, since they espouse the same values that made the United States of America the land that it is. House is well-intentioned, but dangerously ruthless. And as for the Legion, there's no indication that they've recreated the many positive aspects of the Roman Empire, they just sadistic barbarians who enslave people or hang them on crosses. The Nipton lottery is a classic example. I agree that if you could take over as Caesar, maybe you could lead the Legion in a new direction: more civilization, less butchery. But you can't.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:16 am

And as for the Legion, there's no indication that they've recreated the many positive aspects of the Roman Empire, they just sadistic barbarians who enslave people or hang them on crosses. The Nipton lottery is a classic example. I agree that if you could take over as Caesar, maybe you could lead the Legion in a new direction: more civilization, less butchery. But you can't.

And this is unfair.
We've only seen their military camps.
We've yet to see any Legion town what so ever.
The game is too biased to NCR that it's hard to see the good of the Legion as we know nothing of their actual culture and people, only their military strategies and tactics.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:39 am

Legion are children led by a deluded infant, the Legate at least is true to the ideals unlike anyone else in that faction.
If the legate were in charge from the birth of the Legion and all members showed his convictions, then I would like the Legion more.
Since however they are hypocrites at best under caesar, savages playing at honour and history with no understanding of any of it, then I find them worse than common raiders.

NCR, I love the people but dislike the system.
If every NCR member became a neutral free thinker then I would support them.

House I really like House, but if we're talking big picture nation building he's not the bet you want place.

All of this is just my personal views however.

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:53 pm

House does nothing for the Wasteland, before or after. As for Vegas, with all of the problems for Vegas out of the way (NCR, Legion, BoS), the Strip becomes the central hub of commerce for the entire US Post-War IMO, as it is the only thriving city left.

The NCR was doing alright in fallout 2 in terms of cities. Though under House the Strip will certainly flourish.

As for which the OP should choose. It really depends on the character you are making.

In direct gameplay consequences you loose a merchant in high-tech stuff (PA, EW) if you side with House while having the option of keeping them for the NCR.
In metagaming, NCR brings it's somewhat corrupt democracy to Vegas, with taxes for all, but generally prosperity for all will improve. House will be mostly focused on the Vegas area and isn't really a man for helping the poor or anyone really. The Strip will probably prosper.

Also why not Yes-man? Are you implying you need to get rid of both House and the Brotherhood, because you don't have to.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:40 am

Someone said they dont kill people:

Mr House, what crimes did he commit, oh right not handing the strip over to the ncr.
He forced everyone who wouldn't submit to him out of new vegas, killing many people, and created a slum between vegas and the real world worse than both areas around it.
Have Arcade fight for NCR they thank him by life in prison.
The khans dont assimilte to thier will they die.
Same for boomers.
Same for BoS.
Bittersprings anyone ?
A crazed commander who gave the order to kill and who was soon replaced. No different than calling the modern day US a fascist dictatorship because it has had generals and presidents who have screwed up. For every Kimball there is a Tandy. I suggest you look up what tandy did for the ncr and its people.

I could drag a forbiden subject here to make a point, im just going to be vauge so I dont get in trouble and say NCR is saying "For democracy" while invading for resources, and it is resources, like Isaid they want the strip house dosent hand it over they have him assassinated. All because he wouldnt bend over packwards for the ncr, even though he isnt after thier territroy, he just dosent like them schemong to steal the strip, which is what happens. He gave them an embassy, not good enough.
House did the same. If you didn't follow his every whim and turn everything over to him, he would kill you. If you disagreed with him, he would either ignore you or do the former.

If you havent played fallout 2 enjoy this snippet

Better than the legion ? I think not. Democratic ? No, greedy ? Yes. Sounds familier well look at nev vegas and you tell me has it changed. (if you said no then you are correct).

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:25 am

I read on The Vault that though Caesar may be a brutal dictator, in Arizona, things are far better than they were before his rise.

There were many positive aspects to the Roman Empire. Obsidian did a very good job of making it actually feel Roman- I literally walked into The Fort, looked around, and suddenly thought to myself "when did I go to the Fallout version of Europe and out of the Fallout version of the Wild West?"

With regards to the security of Caesar, remember- there is no security for most of the citizens but that of the grave.

With House, the entire Wasteland is left to suffer, at the price of The Strip becoming the most important city in post-war America. Economic power.

With the NCR, they actually make an effort to hold onto it. Though the security net is weak, it's better. The costs being that the NCR svcks the wasteland dry of everything of value.

With Yes Man, you lose nearly all of the benefits above except the benefit of being your own man. You're free, but very little else changes. You lose the security of the NCR, the economic link, etc. And you don't know what's coming down the road.

At least the NCR tries to help everybody, rather than kills them or ignore them.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:12 am

I didn't quote this, but you said "The Legion isn't chaotic evil". IMO you're right. But they are very much Lawful Evil.
As for the NCR, if one wishes to continue with D&D allignments, IMO NCR is Lawful Neutral, with some leaders leaning toward good, some being corrupt and leaning toward evil. The problem with the NCR is they are being imperalistic long before they have the strength to expand out from California. They basically bit off more they can chew by securing the Hoover Dam to help power their nation, and then finding that they are stretched too thin, the way I see it anyway. Look at the frequent complaints of every outpost commander at every camp. They need more troops, and they need more that aren't just recruits.

Having said that, IMO the sins of the Legion are still much greater then the sins of the NCR, although yes they did mistreat the Great Khans. The Great Khans aren't exactly saints, but they aren't horrid. (To continue to use D&D allignments, I'd put them True Neutral).

My personal take on each faction. This will be short:

Yes-Man: Well, YOU become the dictator. You could mean well, you could be a tyrant so it's pure RP. Plus there's the factor of Yes-Man becoming Skynet and/or Hal 9000. He may come back after becoming "more assertive" just simply that, have a bit more backbone. But he may come back and send a dozen Mk 2 Securetrons on your tail too.
House: Well meaning, but a complete despot and although he does have a grand plan, he isn't seeing the individual in his grand plan. I don't think if let's say Goodsprings or Primm were to say "Screw you House, we're independent" that he'd send a half dozen Securtrons out to waylay the town. In fact if memory serves he sends Victor back to Goodsprings to watch over it. But at the same time, people are pawns to him too, if someone stood in the way of his major plans to control and run New Vegas, he'd have no issue getting rid of them. He's obsessed with his plans, period. And his plans for the most part, with only some exceptions don't take into consideration anything much outside of New Vegas either. (If memory serves he sends Victor back to Goodsprings due to them helping the Courior, not due to any desire to protect the town past that).
NCR: As stated above, they are perhaps well meaning but they expanded WAY too soon and are spread way too thin.
Legion: A tyrant that thinks he has the right to rule, period. And thinks his way is the only right way. Caesar doesn't want to listen to opposing viewpoints, he just wants people to agree. And will try to rule period, regardless of what it takes. I can't see how anyone can call any faction willing to set up a lottery, winner lives, second place lives but with their kneecaps busted in, rest enslaved or killed, one burned alive on a pyre made of tires only "less moral". That's just evil. Even if many in the town I'm thinking of were Powder Gangers, whom are very far from being saints obviously.

-Very well put. Bravo.

Basically what irks me the most about "yes man" is the last comment he makes about making himself more assertive AND the fact that he will not be reachable for some time. I would spend that time trying to find the plug for Yes man and cultivating a relationship with BoS possibly even inviting them to examine the lucky 38. They are the only ones in the Mohave that has a chance of having tech that could help me if Yesman turned into "Hal" or "Skynet". I hate being in the dark. And there isn't any guarantee that house left all sorts of booby traps, vira ect in this "assertiveness" programme. It could even be a "computer matrix/copy of Houses persona" just like the one thats installend in "jane". Yesman leaves too many loose ends.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:07 am

food... that is the reason why i will side with the NRC this game through. they spend resources to grow food and they protect their farms and power plants. sure they expansionists but they aren't reckless. violence is a means to end with them. they don't glorify it like the legion does. house maybe good for vegas but what of the rest of the land? humans are starting to recover and their numbers are increasing. this will lead to conflicts over resources. it will come down to conquer or be conquered. i doubt that house could defend vegas forever.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:08 am

food... that is the reason why i will side with the NRC this game through. they spend resources to grow food and they protect their farms and power plants.

Again, we've yet to see a Legion town...

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:41 pm

Well, multiple ways. The Legion would be beneficial to the Mojave in the same way that Hitler was beneficial to Germany. The culture was terrible, and they are both despicable, but the good things outway the bad.

My referance to Hitler and Germany is a little less than this, but Hitler restored Germany's world supremacy and did many good things for Germany, but he is considered an animal because of his mass-killings. (which is sort of like the Legion)

Hitler's Germany was only successful being built on the dead bodies of other people.

1. NCR is not exactly saints either.
2. Depending on personal perspective one could consider some of their laws "evil".
3. NCR makes it's own people suffer due to taxes and valuing the rich above the common folk.
4. Again, depends on perspective, but I'm guessing Khans wouldn't exactly call NCR good.
5. Lots of the people in the NCR are angry about their government or officials or laws.

If Legion is to be considered evil then so is NCR.
Maybe Legion is a tiny bit "more" evil, but evil is still evil.

You can't seriously equate taxes with killing/enslaving everyone you don't like

For all Caesar talks about the Legion being Rome, he is actually Fallout 3's version of Genghis Khan. The whole legion is built and expanded in the exact same way as the Mongols. Caesar is just a gang leader wit large who rambles about historical theories he doesn't really understand to justify himself. All it does is loot to keep itself alive. A legion dominated Mojave would provide security at the cost of countless Crucifixion and fall apart into war again as soon as Caesar dies.

The best hope is still the NCR, for all their flaws. At least they have/are building a functional nation state. But personally, I just went with the Yes Man and took New Vegas for my self since I don't really trust them either.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:11 am

House is the only good choice and the Brotherhood Of Steel isn't as friendly as say the Capital Wasteland BOS. The West Coast BOS isn't going to allow House to use major Technology so killing them is the only safe option.

Caesar when he dies the Legion will fall apart.

The NCR is just going to tax its self to death and Marcus said it best "Thats how Revolutions start"

Yes Man is just a computer he can't really lead New Vegas as good as Mr. House could. The only reason why Yes Man even gets into power is you the Courier and the Courier's life isn't Infinite. When the Courier dies thats when things go down hill.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:22 am

So, since the game was patched a week or so ago, I've thought about starting a new game. The problem is, I don't want to redo my last three character playthroughs, so I'm short both a player idea and an alliance idea. Though in this post, I'm mostly looking for guidance on the alliance idea.

Legion is right out, as I don't endorse the 'burn everything and enslave what doesn't burn' approach.

Yes Man is questionably out, for reasons below.

House and NCR are my choices, but both have their own problems. While I generally support NCR, they want House dead, no exceptions. It seems ludicrous to kill one of the greatest minds of the pre-War era, arrogant as he may be.

Meanwhile, House wants me to wipe out the BoS, which I am also hesitant to do. As crazy as /they/ may be, they also have a vast wealth of knowledge, both pre- and post-war, so it seems crazy to destroy all of the information and technology their bunker contains without some kind of reason besides 'they may challenge my amazing robot army'.

Obviously, I can't continue the game on either case without doing these things, I'm just trying to figure out which is the more reasonable action.

There is but one answer to your problem..... Kill everything. Cant decide which side to join? Kill them all. Leave no one left alive in any city or any town. Kill every quest giver. When decision making fails, senseless violence prevails. You never know, by wiping out the entire population of the Mojave, you might unlock a hidden ending no one knew about!

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:57 am

House is the only good choice and the Brotherhood Of Steel isn't as friendly as say the Capital Wasteland BOS. The West Coast BOS isn't going to allow House to use major Technology so killing them is the only safe option.

Caesar when he dies the Legion will fall apart.

The NCR is just going to tax its self to death and Marcus said it best "Thats how Revolutions start"

Yes Man is just a computer he can't really lead New Vegas as good as Mr. House could. The only reason why Yes Man even gets into power is you the Courier and the Courier's life isn't Infinite. When the Courier dies thats when things go down hill.

House basically says that he'll have a solution in like...100 years?

Sorry dude, not good nuff

» Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:39 pm

Well, if you really want it

OK, here's my interpretation of the NCR before and after:
Before:
-> Lawless scavenngers and bandits roam, terrorizing peaceful settlements such as Goodsprings
-> There is literally NO LAW, and as such people live in a Dog-Eat-Dog world.
-> There is no unified currency, so traders are virtually useless as one person could take paper money and one could take bottle caps, and yet another could take teddy bears or hugs
-> There is no map or charted area, so people can wander aimlessly looking for one location, and be heading in the wrong direction the whole time
-> Animals ravage the area often, causing the death toll to rise more than it does by bandits and theives

After:
-> Besides granting all of the above, the NCR also provides unification of the land, which makes some people feel more secure
-> Possibly bring more technology into the Wasteland
-> An Army that regularly patrols the area, bringing some sort of law.

The NCR doensn't do much in my opininon, their form of government isn't fit for the Wasteland.

Lets not forget that the NCR are a bit harsh if you ever listen to others. I am a faithful NCR loyalist but recently, after all that crap I did for them and I dont get no special treatment. Makes you wonder.

Problems with the NCR:

Spread out to much
Taxes are terrible
Currency is 1/4th the rate, 40 BC's for 100 NCR Dollars, even after a currency change, it takes time to have it fully move to the new currency so there will be problems.
Very Strict on locations
They take over everything, no matter if you lived there for your entire life. Its either deal with it or leave and face the wasteland.
Selfish - They take Hoover Dam, and sent 95% of its power back west. 5% goes to Las Vegas. Sure, House agreed to this but at what cost?

Legion possibly but imagine the slavery! Include the health the slaves may go through could increase death rates, plus an additional death toll increase if you also add in the "Lottery's" on each town when the Legion takes over.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:32 am

Legion possibly but imagine the slavery! Include the health the slaves may go through could increase death rates, plus an additional death toll increase if you also add in the "Lottery's" on each town when the Legion takes over.

Not really fair.
We haven't seen any Legion town so we don't know how the majority of slaves are treated.
And Nipton was one lottery led by Sir Inculta.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:21 pm

My referance to Hitler and Germany is a little less than this, but Hitler restored Germany's world supremacy and did many good things for Germany, but he is considered an animal because of his mass-killings. (which is sort of like the Legion)

Actually, Hitler was a waster of wealth. He created an illusion of restoration. He "achieved full employment" by forcing almost all German women to become housewives so that men could have their work places. He "created a rising economy" almost solely by expanding the military and the arms industry. He invented new ways to run a gigantic covert deficit spending through the so-called MEFO bills. His "self-sufficiency policy" sought to eliminate Germany's need for foreign trade- but in fact all it did was suffocate German exports, because Germany couldn't stop importing the raw materials that were simply not found in the German territory. His anti-Jewish policies robbed Germany of its finest engineers, doctors, architects and scientists- people like Einsten, Ernst Chain (who discovered penicillin's chemical composition which enabled the production of antibiotics), Emanuel Goldberg (inventor of the microdot technology and the hand-held movie camera, founder of Zeiss optics company), some of the Manhattan Project scientists, etc.).

The only good thing Hitler ever did was the autobahns.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:09 pm

Not really fair.
We haven't seen any Legion town so we don't know how the majority of slaves are treated.
And Nipton was one lottery led by Sir Inculta.

Yeah and look how that turned out. All dead or enslaved except for 2 people and one of them is a cripple. Majority of slaves? I look at the fort and I see slaves crucified or wearing very heaving equipment stumbling around who look very unhealthy.

» Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:19 am

Of course. I'm not looking for someone to give me the 'right' answer. I'm looking for someone to give me reasonable arguments, reasonings for why I should do this and that. Heck, I'd even take an argument on why the Legion would be good (though I doubt I'd get it, especially since I roll female characters.)

Open your horizons, if you haven't played those endings at all then your seriously hurting your Vegas gameplay. Role-play a character that doesn't care about that and dont let your feelings get in the way. It's just a game, it won't hurt to try and join them.