Thank you, Borkelsplatz. This is something I can actually agree with you about. I don't make any illusions about me being part of the majority of TES players.

I'd say there's every probability you're right. And I probably don't accomplish anything but complaining about details that don't make sense. In fact it's almost certainly a waste of time. Probably, almost certainly. But since I can't play the game right now anyway, I'm not really losing anything by doing it, am I?

So when you pick up a sword that is the stuff of legends, the reaper or souls, the slayer of entire armies. A weapon more legendary than you, the Dragon Born, or anything you could ever hope to create and it is weak as hell that doesn't come across as one of the single stupidest things ever?

I'm not talking stat impairment like legit RPGs where they ether don't let you wield it or you wield it horribly. I'm talking about in game Loot Scaling which is just stupid!

Worse is when you are one hit killed by an enemy. All you can think about is how epic the weapon you are going to get is going to be. Hell if it is weak it will at least fetch a fair price at market. You've done the math, it has to be decent or be using decent arrows and you kill the guy and it is a hunters bow with elven arrows or a basic Ancient Nord Sword. This would make sense if there were stat based things like Endurance, Strength, Dexterity, or whatever skill governs what but no it is simplistic, dumbed down, health, magic, or stamina so you rule that out. The next course you think of is well it must be the skill tree which is a skill tree not a Perk Tree as advertised but whatever, so you do the math and no it can't be that because you have 150 health and at best it could only two hit you, even with critical.

So yeah Loot scaling is stupid! Making them Skill based but not implementing it fully because it would scare off the main stream market (which isn't even true but someone in Bethesda thinks so) is stupid. It is dumbing down plain and simple.

Now I'm not talking conditions or varying weapon stats which would be epic to find swords with different condition left and even different stats because they were made from different forges by different smiths or even having to bust your posterior to find a weapon crafted by a master craftsman. All that would be intelligent and would make ES an epic game. I'm not saying I want an epic weapon in every boosh ether but when I crawl through ruins past Drauger Overlords to reach a weapon of legend used to slay 1000 vampires or whatever I'd like it to actually be EPIC instead of well you're only level 13 (enemy scaling another dumbing down) so the weapons stats will be svck leaving your current weapon better than the weapon of legend that killed 1000 vampires, save an empire, and got the emperor laid on a hourly basis (it was a pretty epic weapon after all).

By that convention; MW3 is obviously the best game ever.

Who needs game design when you have marketing am I right.

No, it just means the game looks really nice on the surface and ten million bought the hype and were "terrible" enough to not see through it.

I dont know :/ Wich elder scrolls is most hated ?
Seems like it is skyrim,used to be oblivion.maybe both oblivion and skyrim.
I still love them both and dont care what people say

I know what inference means. What I am saying, is that anything infered is inherently a theory, and not a fact. You said it yourself: its a logical conclusion, which is based on incomplete/inexisting data.

In other words, you can try insulting my vocabulary all you want, but at the end of the day you invented yourself a high horse. You presented something you thought was true as something that was true, and then you had the gall to accuse us of doing just that

Get over yourself. You THINK you are the majority. You dont know so.

Naw, we're all on here wasting time the say heh, you're right on that account!

Yes they did.

This doesn't need part 3.

Actually, if you've paid attention to my post i'm not really talking about ME or my opinions vs. yours, i'm talking about the (likely, not proven) view of most TES players. Of course it's not fact, but everyone I talk about the game (including my wife, all my friends, acquaintances etc) LOVE the game to a point of obsession, it's clearly a popular, well-liked game. I'm going out on a limb that these people represent the norm more than you, and to some degree me. Outside of forums complaints like yours seem pretty uncommon.

I love in depth, sometimes difficult RPGs. Gothic 2 and all the old Bioware infinity engine games are some of my favorites. I've probably played more modded up Morrowind and Oblivion over the years than many of the people complaining about bygone days. However, i'm under no illusion that most of the game buying public has my interests, and indeed the evidence seems pretty obvious that they don't. That is what i'm talking about, you're right I don't have any direct proof, but there is certainly more circumstantial evidence for the probability that most people don't share your complaints. There is certainly little evidence that they do.

While there's no direct evidence, these are the logical conclusions to draw!

Eh, this game outsold MW3 on Steam.

If you don't like the game, find mods that make it what you like. Discuss the things you want it to be. Post on the modding forum about what you would like. (Though run a search first--I find someone has already asked for whatever I am asking for, and as time goes on, has already modded it.) The primary beauty of this game is that it is designed to be modded. The primary beauty of the forums is that you can complain or praise and discuss whatever you like or don't like about the game.

Once again, you say your point is the likely view of most TES players.

Its a bit like this:

"Most TES players agree with me and think that the game was oversimplified and, in the process, ended up being shallow."

Here, i'm doing like you. Here is what I think presented as a fact and left unjustified. Does that mean that I am right? Does that mean that I have just proven you wrong? You think I am being silly? I agree. So are you.

This premise has exactly the same % chance of being right as yours, since neither is based on any kind of factual data. They are both nothing more then a shot in the dark. You are trying to sell a hunch as a fact, and I am not buying it.

Meanwhile, we are trying to discuss game mechanics, not who has more people agreeing with them. I dont judge the validity of an argument based on how many people repeat it, and I dont know a lot of people who does.


Again: stop going out on limbs. Thats not providing arguments, thats providing conjectures.

We may not like the game, but we like the series.

I like the Lord of the Rings. The first two movies were awesome, and my reason for going to watch the third. I'd be pretty pissed if it turned out to be a [censored] comedy, wouldn't you?

No, the difference is that my arguments rest on the general popularity of the game, which is somewhat provable. On the other hand, yours would rest on the existence of a small minority of forums posters who have some very specific and specialized complaints about the game, and an attempt to claim this specialized group represents that majority.

In order for you to be able to draw similar inferences you would need a larger sampling of people complaining about the game...there is some flaw in this model of seeing things for a variety of reasons, and I admit it's far from perfect. However, it is all we have to go on to draw inferences about the popularity of the game or the general attitude of people who have purchased it. And as such, it seems failry obvious that we can safely infer there are far fewer people who are unsatisfied with the game in the way that you are.

Neither side of this argument has "facts" as such, it's clearly a very subjective thing, so the best we can do is draw these inferences.

There are a HUGE number of topics you will debate in your life that neither side has direct, empirical data on..if you cannot grasp this, then you cannot have any real debates about a number of important subjects.

1. Find my exact quote where i said those that dislike the game are in the minority. Words in my mouth. Stop it.

2. Its a [censored] opinion. It doesn't have to be based on anything more then "For [censored] and giggles". I do have reasons, but the principal of the matter is, I don't have to justify my opinion to you.


and for the record, this is what you quoted. I never said what you claim. I clearly stated that a SINGLE THREAD was not a valid source just because its filled with a handful of people voicing their disagreement. I never said those that dislike the game are in the minority.

Thats the truth

just because it sold 10 mil copys dosent mean that its the greatest thing ever. I thought it was so I bought it.. and after 3 different characters the game is still broke and i hate it

Except that popularity is completely irrelevant.

Imagine if Bethesda decided to make the next TES game an FPS, and it nearly doubled the sales it made with Skyrim. Does that mean the game was better than Skyrim because it sold more? That the people complaining about it because it was nothing like Skyrim were completely wrong?

TES games used to be different. They used to appeal to a different group of people -- a small group of people, in the eyes of Bethesda. So they changed things up to push their games into the mainstream market, and hopefully grab the attention of far more people -- people that didn't notice games like Morrowind or Daggerfall. You might think it's awesome. Your friends might think it's awesome.

.. but to the people who bought Skyrim because it had "TES" in the name (and had played many TES games in the past), it's different and it's not very good. If anything, they're right. Skyrim is different and it isn't very good because it no longer holds the feeling that TES games once had.

This isnt supposed to be a social simulator. Thats like complaining about the lack of snoring when your character sleeps. As for choices, theres many. Whatever clown said they felt like they were on 'rails', well, id love to see your opinion on any other rpgs/action/adventure games on the market. When you can choose wherevyou want to go, how you want to get there, and what quests to do at any given time, then thats exact opposit of 'rails'. Makes me wonder if people who think this died in the tutorial dungeon....then id understand. Also, 'deep personality' development was never seen in TES. I dont even know if such a feature exists in any game, and if it does, im sure its in sacrifice of having an open world. Maybe you can find personality dev in Deus Ex, but have fun exploring three city blocks