I would normally have something to say back to all of y'all, but quite frankly, I just don't give a [censored]. Why? Because most of you are RPG nuts that want to live your lives through a video game character and want a game as realistic as it gets. I can honestly say I don't even know why I even signed up for these forums. Have fun in your hell, peace.

kthxbye, remember to shut the door on your way out.

Not even close bud. I just wish to play a game, not follow instructions. Is that really too much to ask? I wish to work problems out, interact in a meaningful way, get information & act on it. Follow up clues & information, find what I'm looking for, then get on with the business of doing what I went there for. Sounds great, doesn't it?

This is one of the major reasons why Morrowind is still hailed as one of the best elder scrolls games to date.

Sure, it had terrible combat. Sure it's RPG system was slightly convoluted and encouraged spread-sheet exploitation to really take advantage of it.

But it did one thing that Oblivion AND Skyrim has failed on. The entire foundation and overarching design of the game was built around letting the player have freedom and encouraging exploration, which allowed it to support all types of playstyles, even one that chooses to never quest.

Skyrim and Oblivion's entire foundation is based entirely around getting loot and getting quests, and Skyrim doubly so. Those two things are a staple in Elder Scrolls games yes, and you can do them in every single one. Except what made morrowind different was that the game design used questing to support player exploration, rather than making quests the entire point of the game, and then just slapping a world around it.

Sure you can "ignore" quests in Skyrim, and ignore scaled loot and all that jazz. But then you are having to "fight" with the system, which was never designed for you to never do those things. Bethesda is too afraid of letting players have the freedom of being able to do nothing quest wise, and as such forces them to do questing. It isn't natural, its not organic and it really trivializes the game world they have created. It makes questing feel mechanical, numerical, video-gamey and spread-sheety.... the very same things they wanted to avoid after Morrowind. Funny how that works? Now the whole game expects you to mechanically "accomplish it", instead of a single feature in the leveling system requiring you to mechanically think out your level ups so they can be the most optimal. In the end, it makes for a game that is unsure of itself. You have the world that wants you to do one thing, but then you have the overarching design of the backend that influences you to play the game in their specific way, versus not.

And that is why Morrowind was so good, even if it's moment-to-moment gameplay situations lacked. The backend design of the whole game was done brilliantly. I wonder if they can re-apply that design again for a future game in the series?

PS: I still think Skyrim is one of the best in the series though, don't get me wrong. The world design is top notch, so even if I have to go against what the game design wants me to do, and even if the design of the game is less flexible overall, I can still ignore quests, explore and mostly do what I want

Maybe I'm just totally clueless about how this kind of game is "supposed" to be played, But, even though I have the markers turned on for both the compass and map, basically for me they don't exist. The fall into the same catagory as kids having a tantrum, and nagging wives - Unseen and unheard. Unlike say EQ2 or AOC in Skyrim I find the markers to be neither annoying and distracting, or essential to quest progression and completion.

What got me to come to Skyrim, my first TES attempt, was Todd Howard's claim that "If you can see it then you can get there" and for about 99% of the game I have found this to be true. Oh yeah, I can't climb this vertical cliff face, but if I move over to that point I can get a bit farther up and then to there I can get further up, and so forth. Some times is just works out that from where you are you can't reach the point you want but 1/4 mile away is the path the takes you back to the point that you are trying to reach.

I don't follow markers and such. I look at my map to see what basic direction I need to go and then I start walking and climbing. Why going all over creation on a road and get whacked by things hiding in the bushes and trees when I can go over the mountains and through the river valleys and Oh, by the way ambush the ambusher because I am now behind them by 100 yards or so and then get close enough to back shoot them with a bow or bum rush them with a sword. Several characters have taken down the DB assissins solely because they were not in the place that they were "supposed" to be and therefore got the drop on the the assassin.

Quest markers don't have any effect on my ability or desire to explore the world of skyrim or the way that I handle quests.

except for the fact that i can't remember my play 3 days ago. a journal or virtual journal without the marker quests is a no brainer.

I'd say it (Skyrim) equals Oblivion, a little bit better perhaps. Which means, both are far, far behind Morrowind. World design is great in Skyrim, but it lacks the essence of an RPG, which is the whole experience. In RPG's, you ask people where things/other people are, and not everyone knows the right answer, some will probably think they got it right, but they're far off. And the world reacts and changes as you go along. As the archmage, you wouldn't get the "if you're interested in magic, you should join the mages guild". You'd get something like "WOW, you're the archmage! It's an honor to meet you!"


It's great that you're enjoying the game and don't have a problem with the quest markers, but as you said, you haven't tried Morrowind (I haven't tried the TES games before but from what I hear I'd guess I'd love Daggerfall). The basics for an RPG is that you are who you want to be, you do what you want and the world has to react to your actions. The "real" journal is not there in Skyrim, and the interface lacks information. Morrowind is the perfect example for how it is supposed to be, but some argue with the number of skills and how "messy" the UI is. At least you get a reasonable amount of information.


Exactly! Personally, with the system that was in Morrowind, I could come back 3 or 4 months later and continue exactly where I went off, and even remember what I did, when I did it and what I did in-between the journal entries. Oblivion&Skyrim? No way.

highdarktemplar-

thus, my morrowind advocacy.

Is it mandatory? (pardon, but I won't have the game until after the CS is available.)

Can't speak for us all with that 'We'... While many of us don't like a virtual leash that tugs towards the intended path in every situation, many do appreciate the easy reminder (after a few days break from the game); and in other instance, some just want to go straight there at times.

Not everyone is like that. My fondest memories of Fallout are in fact of the Glow Quest.
I don't see that... How exactly? (PM if need.)

Better still... just add a few events into the tutorial to discern the player's preference.
Example: Add a few puzzles into the area ~nothing mandatory, just oddity, (and some diabolically concealed). At the end, see if those puzzles are solved, or found. Add a few books with 40 pages and check to see if it was read in its entirety ~or knowledge of details that would be hard to gather from skimming. None of it affects the player's escape into the world, but if the player stopped and read a 40 page book in the begining of a vast action RPG they just bought... Perhaps it would be appreciated by them to enable a few hidden perks akin to NV's Wild Wasteland, but centered more on adding depth, backstory and additional complexity to certain situations later in the game; stuff that may have been cut out due to concern about pacing, or risk of frustration and such.

Id be all for no markers if I could walk up to npc and ask questions. Where does Rallo live, is he somewhere around here? The Jarl sent me out here to kill the bandits that are giving you trouble, can you point me in the direction of their camp? Thats probably not going to be doable for another 20 years though so this is a good compromise. Random searching really isnt a valid substitute for realistic npc interaction.

Ok, here is the old man answer (principally because I'm an old man). First I like the quest marker. I didn't get any joy in the old days puzzling for hours over what specific solution the game was looking for when you got a quest. I like knowing what I'm supposed to do. I even play with the guide next to my chair. I like researching the place I'm going before I go.

Second, as a software developer on complex projects (Defense contractor, 30+ years), anything you add to a program (like a dual mode quest system) will make things more complicated, less maintainable, and more bug prone. Everything you add is a tradeoff. Don't assume anything is easy to add. Sometimes the easiest sounding things are the hardest to implement (and vice versa).

That said I would dearly love a way to delete pending quests though. I don't expect them to do it, but I'd like to trash the quests which I as a good character will never do. Maybe a heroic switch which will never trigger evil quests? Oh well. If I'd had that in Oblivion I would never have triggered Shivering Isles. As it was I didn't finish. I just couldn't be that much of a b%$#@#$##$d.

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