So if Torygg had been older and more experienced in combat and also trained in the Thu'um, then Ulfric's challenge and Torygg's death would've been perfectly acceptable? Because if not, then the issue of Torygg's age, ability and experience is irrelevant. It's just a convenient way distract people from the issue of whether or not the duel was legal in the first place.

If the duel was legal, then Torygg's age and inexperience are immaterial. He was the High King, the High King can be challenged, it's an occupational hazard that one agrees to when one takes the throne. If the challenge is accepted and the duel takes place then neither winner is a murderer regardless of the outcome.

if it was illegal, then nobody's age and experience are relevant because both men agreed to participate in an unlawful act which resulted in the death of one at the hands of the other. Regardless of the outcome, whoever survives is guilty.

Torygg's age and inexperience may have made him an easier man to beat, but it was his position as High King (and his apparent political sympathies) that put the target on his back in the first place. IMO had he been an older and more experienced man the target would have been there just the same.

And unless you're willing to accept the idea that Torygg would've been charged with murder had he won, then any complaints about the illegality of the duel are meaningless. If Torygg could've killed Ulfric somehow in the course of violating the laws of the land and still walked away a free man, then the same must apply to Ulfric when he wins. Otherwise the "law" is either being invented on the spot or selectively enforced simply because those who are in a position to invent and enforce it don't like the way things turned out. And that really does nothing to help the Empire's case, lol.

I... actually wish i'd not posted now, lol. Where were all you guys earlier, when it was a flood of Imperial supporters? Now I feel like a bully... or part of a mob.

The thing is neither side is a good side in the civil war, there both large shades of grey.

The thing is though is to see the facts of the situation. Hard to do sometimes with both sides laumching propaganda against the other.

I agree. I support the Stormcloaks, buts thats because I like Ulfric, feel that the Stormcloaks path is better RP fodder, and prefer nationalism over imperialism.

I do feel that enough good and bad points can be found to both sides that either one is a 'good' choice. It all depends on the character. Bethesda did a good job of making it grey-grey and a tough situation to choose in.

Off topic; your sig is fun Redneckdevil. Even better when you consider Ulfric IS a prisoner, as are all the Stormcloaks at the beginning. Uflric is a prisoner, leading prisoners, and throwing prisoners at the Thalmor. =D

All the Argonians, Elves, Khajiit, Bretons, Redguards, and Imperial civilians in Skyrim: "Boo! Ulfric svcks!"

But seriously, Ulfric svcks.

Really? I saw a Redguard farmer saying he was going to join the Stormcloaks.

I was half-joking.

Lol thanks, ya realized afterwards this what ulfrics 3rd time being a prisoner lol.

If you make a promise, you don't break it. Using it against Torygg especially was NOT fair and honorable combat, since you basically took a sacred and ancient "superpower" and used it for your own political gains. You can't just go and study with the Graybeards then be all like "yeah imma gonna break your ideology and use it for my own political gain now." That's just dishonest. As Dragonborn, there'd be no way I'd support Ulfric.

Ulfric is a scumbag bent on power.

People really should stop complaining about Racism. Aside from the fact Racism is natural (Look it up. Oak trees and birds good starters) several races are racist. Elves, Argonians especially after purifying their race in the books, the people who live in the Eastern Continent.

Plus I have honestly not seen Ulfric do anything racist. People talk about his doing racist things but you never see him carry any of those acts out.

before the greybeards capitalized on it, pretty much every nord used the thuum in battle. Also i wouldnt hold Ulfric on that promise seeing how he himself was but a child when he was summoned to be a greybeard like literally 5 or 6. The greybeards are the only ones who turned a weapon given by the gods to use to slay their enemys into a pacifist way of enlightenment.

Also the use of it fair and honroable, no one really can say if it was or wasnt bc pretty much 90% of all of us, myself included dotn fully understand the nordic culture. I believe the closest thing i can see with thier culture is that might makes Right, and everyone agrees and follows that. Ulfric was fully commited to being a greybeard until he heard about the great war, and felt that he would be of more usefulness for the country out there on the fighting lines instead of having this power and staying up isolated formt he world.

the use of the thuum was not needed to best the high king but as a demostration, to have a stronger claim against the queen as him being a powerful nord, also to rally the public and to strike fear into skyrims enemys that Nords from the storys of long ago is tryign to be in charge. And yes, hes bent on getting that seat so he can change things and turn skyrim from a empire's wiping lapdog into a strong monstrous beast that it used to be. Everyone whos been king has been bent on getting that position, dosent mean its all for personal gains, he wants it bc thats the position to be able to actually change things.

The Greybeards don't own the Voice. It was given by the gods to mankind for their use in self defense. The Thalmor are an existential threat. He broke from the Greybeards to fight them, and the empire rewards his and others' service by letting the Thalmor send them to prison for worshipping Talos. So screw scruples. It's a pretty hypocritical dragonborn who slaughters her way through Skyrim and then gets prissy about Ulfric's duel.

The only "promise" the Greybeards can ask of a student is that they commit to the Way of the Voice as a prerequisite to becoming and remaining a member of their order. Ulfric was chosen by the Greybeards and sent to become one of them when he was a child, probably somewhere between 6-10 years of age. Even if it was something he thought he wanted for himself at the time, HE WAS A CHILD and you cannot make a binding lifetime contract with a child. You don't ask a ten year old to make a life-altering commitment, or make it on their behalf because they are underage, and then demand that they stick to it for the rest of their lives.

It would be like sending a child off to study for the priesthood because the Vatican "chose" him for the honor, and then demanding that he obey all their rules and stick to all their vows for the rest of his life even after he realizes that he doesn't want to be a priest and leaves the order. It's ridiculous.

The Way of the Voice is a Greybeard thing, it's something you have to follow if you are a Greybeard and want to remain one. If you stop following it, they can kick you out of their order and stop teaching you. That's it. Even if Ulfric took some vow to follow it when he was sent there, his obligation to do so ended the day he left them. And IMO that's even more true given the fact that he was a child when he was sent there and very likely had little choice in the matter in the first place.

"Ulfric Stormcloak is NOT contemptible"

Yeah, he really is. I've posted on other threads about how it would be better if Skyrim stayed in the empire because it would help everyone to be strong enough to fight the Aldmeri Dominion but there's a thread here right now about Ulfric's age and it's estimated at about late 40s and that got me thinking.

We know that the young Torygg may have even looked up to Ulfric in some ways because of the comments of Elisif's wizard so I have to think that if Ulfric had thought things through, he might have been able to influence Torygg to his way of thinking more...try to take him under his wing. Sadly, it points to blind ambition on Ulfric's part that he didn't do that. A lot of people die in a civil war and they all have to live together after it's over. It's not something people get over; the animosity gets passed down through the generations and lives on.

You assume he didn't try to influence Torygg in other ways first. We know he was speaking out about independence at a moot, and the Stormcloaks were gathering steam for several years while the game says Torygg's death was "recent." If Torygg had really had any inclination or intention of joining a secession movement, he never did anything about it. It's a pretty safe conclusion that either he never intended to or that he didn't have the werewithal.

Either way, his death served the purpose of sending a challenge to the empire that they could not ignore. Sure it's not pretty, but neither is watching the empire crumble from within and drag its provinces down with it.

the only problem is is that the high king had a reputation of being all talk. Plus the court mage didnt give a good case that the king would have gone with ulfrics idea seeing how she blasted and gave reasons why the king wouldnt do that.

weither he thought it through or not, he went with the nord and even empire practiced tradition in getting to the position to be able to do something about it.

I also see that he figured he had to go that route seeing how he was very outspoken in courts and such, and after seeing nothing being done or started figured the only way to get it done is become the high king himself.

Torygg was the High King, he's supposed to be leading the flock, not under someone's wing unless he chooses to be there and makes it clear that he is looking for guidance. It appears that he was very vocal in public about his admiration for and support of the Empire. Why would anyone, including Uflric, think that he was interested in being "influenced" in another direction? If Torygg was open to it, it was his responsibility as High King to make that known to his Jarls and ask for their input, not the other way around. If he secretly agreed with Ulfric and his secessionist ideals, it was his responsiblity to make that known to Ulfric so the two of them could work together towards that end. I think it's safe to say that Ulfric's position on the matter was not a secret, if Torygg was sympathetic to it and kept that under wraps from those to whom he knew it might make a world of difference, then that was his failure as a High King, not Ulfric's failure as a Jarl.

All Ulfric is doing is seeking the throne under the guise of religious rights.