I'm perfectly wiling to negotiate. Here's an idea: the Empire allows Skyrim to secede and become an independent nation, free from Imperial regulation and therefore no longer bound to the terms of the WGC. In return they get a free trade agreement and a mutual defense treaty with regard to any future conflicts with the Dominion. And because Skyrim becomes a Thalmor-free zone while still remaining a staunch ally, both sides get a staging ground on which to prepare for eventual war with the Dominion, one that is not crawling with Thalmor who are free to roam the country for intel and surveillance with Imperial protection and support.

And it doesn't matter if you are willing to make concessions if your concessions do not address the main issue at hand, which is the WGC and resultant Thalmor presence in Imperial territory. Negotiations are only possible if both sides have something to offer that the other side wants and is willing to compromise in order to get. If the Empire can't offer all of Skyrim freedom from the terms of the WGC and its Thalmor enforcers, then IMO they can't offer anything that makes a compromise worthwhile to those whose main goal is exactly that.

I originally sided Empire because I always thought it was a good thing in games past, but 200 years changes a lot, and when I did StormCloak I sided with them, they are right and honourable.

The Empire is at a period of change. It's at that critical moment where it could be something more and that critical moment, if passed, will revitalize the Empire underneath the Mede dynasty.

Ulfric is not a good leader. Ulfric's disdain for the Thalmor is in words only, just like Tullius. Only difference is that Tullius is smart and he knows to conceal it. To keep your plans as dark as night, a famous principle of Sun Tzu. I'd rather have a general who knows what he's doing. Tullius is so much more than Ulfric Stormcloak.

Let me correct my statement.

No, Skyrim should belong to the Nords. Outsiders should not be welcome, unless on trade or diplomatic business. You should go to Cyrodiil if you want a diverse melting pot.

It's half and half, not a majority. Rikke says "more join his cause every day."

And I've posted what the compromise is. Nord sovereignty with Cyrodiil negotiating on equal terms with Skyrim as a free nation. If they can't accept that, that's too bad. Your "concessions" are basically "you do what we want and we get to keep half your country and most of your resources for our own disposal." That's a nice deal you're working out for the empire there.

Rikket was being realistic, being honest about the situation is a professional trait, not a means of admitting disadvantage. People join Ulfric just as they join the Imperial cause, and there is a stalemate because neither side has the forces necessary to overcome the other.

It is only due to the Dragonborn's intervention that the war progresses down the path it does, although one could argue that Ulfric would eventualy be fighting at a disadvantage by attacking a mutual hold like Whiterun which would diminish legitimacy, but also give the Empire another hold as an asset. Considering Ulfric's mastery in the voice acted as a large force multiplier during the Markarth rebellion, it's also likely that without him the Stormcloaks would be at a tactical disadvantage against the Imperial Nords.

However that was not what my comment was about, if you look through the discussion you would notice very few Stormcloak supporters willing to compromise and find a solution everyone can live with. Perhaps it is why those from the Empire tend to make the best diplomats, if everyone took a hard line approach to disputes nothing would ever get done. We waste our strength fighting each other as the Thalmor plot and scheme to destroy us all.

I've been enjoying the tongue in cheek topic so far, but overpopulation is a berserk button for me.

Bear in mind that we are overpopulated more due to packing ourselves into tiny places, rather than due to lack of space. There are huge swathes of landmass that could easily give everyone on earth a large area to live in, with room to spare. We just tend to clump together in melting pots.

I get angry at the 'we don't have enough food to sustain out population' argument too; do you know how much food is wasted and goes rotten daily in the west? Its criminal, and wasteful. My friend has worked at a UK supermarket for several years, and they have a bakery section. At the end of the day, they usually have at least a third of the stuff baked left over. However, 'regulations' state that they cannot take it home, nor buy it. Not do they sell it the next day, even if the shelf-life is days. It all has to go into the bin. There are also regulations of fruit shape and size that farmers have to conform with to sell their produce. They cannot sell a banana if its too straight. Regulations to stop overfishing don;t actually stop it, they just stop it from being brought ashore and sold. Tons of dead fish are dumped before ships return to land the world over.

Giving government control of childbirth and family planning? Because that is working out great for China and its terminal lack of females babies due to their one-child policy and everyone wanting sons. And thats not even getting into the amount that are killed, Altmer style, because they are not what the parents wanted. Not to mention that despite the overall population, the west is dying, since we aren't making enough children to sustain out societies.

...

Wow, I probably shouldn't post this. But the sort of thinking you profess genuinely scares me due to the amount of trust it requires on politicians and government. I won't continue with this line of conversation in topic, because I don't want to nuke what is an otherwise fun thread. I just felt this needed to be said. If anyone wants to curse at me and/or continue, please feel free to PM me a response.

Hm. Guess there is a reason I prefer the Stormcloak route. D=

So where are you getting your statement that the majority of the Nords support the imperials? This makes no sense. They have him fighting for them now, so if there's a tactical advantage then that's still present. And both the empire and Stormcloaks intend to take Whiterun, because it is key to control of the country. The rp thing is cute, but in the game the empire is not negotiating anything. It takes two to dance- the empire intervened in Skyrim, and now they're sending a legion to suppress rebellion there, and they're no more willing to compromise on Skyrim's sovereignty than the Stormcloaks are.

The rp thing is cute, but in the game the empire is not negotiating anything.

Traditionally, it takes an attacker a 3:1 numerical advantage to overcome an enemy position, provided force multipliers are not in place. We must also consider that General Tullius has only been in Skyrim for a few months, already turning the situation around quite dramatically according to reports on both sides, defeating Ulfric in a number of engagements (peace talks during the main quest) whos advance has apparently ground to a halt since his arrival in Skyrim. On the other hand Ulfric has been entrenched and has planned the war for years, steadily gaining advantage until he had the support necessary to make his rebellion come to fruition.

The Empire never had any plans to attack Whiterun, and I have no idea why you say this. Regaurdless of the side Dragonborn takes, Ulfic attacks Whiterun while the Empire defends it.

No need for the nasty condescending comments, although I do find it odd that Tullius took less convincing to attend the peace talks at HH than Ulfic did, and even then it was Ulfic who used the meeting to try and gain political advantage.

The Empire never had any plans to attack Whiterun, and I have no idea why you say this. Regaurdless of the side Dragonborn takes, Ulfic attacks Whiterun while the Empire defends it.

The Empire never had any plans to attack Whiterun because they didn't have to attack it. It was already Imperial by default simply by not actively supporting the Stormcloaks. Tullius is so eager to keep it that way that he's willing to lie to Balgruuf about Stormcloak activity and intentions in order to convince him that the immediate threat is greater than it really is, and the Stormcloaks don't attack until Balgruuf has already given Whiterun over to the Legion. Tullius has no plan to attack Whiterun because his plan is to make attack unnecessary by getting there first even if he has to fudge the facts to achieve it.

But I'm sure if Balgruuf had sided with Ulfric and allowed a Stormcloak garrison there, Tullius would've just shrugged and said "oh well, I guess we can't have Whiterun." *rolls eyes*

It's a different things to attack a hold that has sided with the opposition and to attack one that is neutral, correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't done the civil war quest in a long time but didn't whiterun sided with the empire because Ulfric decides to attack it?

And when does Tulius lied to Balgruuf? I don't seem remember it

It's a different things to attack a hold that has sided with the opposition and to attack one that is neutral, correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't done the civil war quest in a long time but didn't whiterun sided with the empire because Ulfric decides to attack it?

And when does Tulius lied to Balgruuf? I don't seem remember it

That's something I've noticed... Stormcloak people, both in game and in IRL discussions, seem to want to pretend that the Empire has no ulterior plan, that they're a Thalmor lapdog through and through, and that they actually are in favor of the Talos ban.

It's a different things to attack a hold that has sided with the opposition and to attack one that is neutral, correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't done the civil war quest in a long time but didn't whiterun sided with the empire because Ulfric decides to attack it?

And when does Tulius lied to Balgruuf? I don't seem remember it

The thing I've noticed is that Empire supporters, esp. in RL discussions, tend to couch everything in personal terms--thus Ulfric (and by implication everyone who supports him) is a "racist" (despite no real evidence), Ulfric is a "scumbag", a "d**k", "sleazy", etc.--subjective, emotionally over-wrought, even sophomoric slanders, every one.

And now here's another personal attack...on a whole group of people ("Stormcloak people") who hold a different opinion. An opinion expressed mostly in terms of the ethics of colluding with an oppressor who has the expressed goal of wiping out all human beings in Tamriel.

There is something suspect (at the very least) about a government that cedes its sovereignty...and the right to suppress religious freedom, at the point of a sword...to a foreign power.

And there is something disturbing, or at least baffling, about people who will bend the knee and accede to such an unholy alliance--one that, incidentally, simply passes a more entrenched and more powerful Thalmor influence (and all the problems that entails) onto their children rather than deal with it themselves.

The real wonder is not that so many people, both in the game and in RL, support the Stormcloaks and are unwilling to endorse the WGC (version 2) but that so many others dismiss both the practical and ethical implications of "sleeping with the enemy."

Nope. Ulfric doesn't attack Whiterun until Balgruuf lets the imperial troops garrison in the city.

Listen to Tullius and Rikke when you first meet them talking. He tells Rikke to send a letter to Balgruuf saying that Ulfric's going to attack him, and to embellish the details.