Your proposal makes Cyrodiil the "Big Brother" in the arrangement with Eastern Skyrim being more-or-less a petty vassal.

Why should we Nords accept this? You accuse us of not trying to find a fair deal whilst you give us an arrangement which is no better than an Imperiak Skyrim.

We can only come to an agreement if you treat us with the respect we deserve! We propose an end to the needless bloodshed of Imperial soldiers in exchange for a fully independent Skyrim. From there we can treat each other as mutuals in an alliance that will help be beneficial to all.

The majority are from the 3rd age, but I don't think that part maters. What I was trying to say is that Mer can sustain just as many loses as Humans can, and it doesn't take them centuries to replenish loses.What they can't replace are the wizards who have lived for hundreds of years and led their forces into battle on that experience, by all accounts the Aldmeri wizards proved to be a very deadly force to the legions and each loss would be felt by the Dominion. No doubt they had been a favorite target of the blades.

The empire's prosecution of the war against the Dominion is half the issue the Stormcloaks have with them. I don't see how your proposal changes anything at all. If Cyrodiil wants a defense alliance, it should negotiate for one while recognizing Skyrim as a sovereign territory. No taxes, no conscription. Equitable trade and diplomatic relations with Skyrim able to look out for its interests and not just Cyrodiil's. That's the way you change the current situation.

That has got to be the most deranged Skyrim-related idea I have ever read on this forum. Parading Uflric's reanimated corpse around seems like a greater affront to the Stormcloaks than the WGC. You'd pretty much be mocking them.

Of course it's relevant this was long before The Great War. I've stated many times how the far longer lifespan of elves would balance out demographics during peacetime. However at war it would be a huge weakness. As you've got the human armies completely re-populated within a generation or two, whereas the elves aren't going to recover for many, many more generations (possibly even centuries).

Of course if like you say the fertility rate of mer greatly increases during times of drastic population decline, then this wouldn't be the case.

The Stormcloaks would find this beneficial because it keeps the Empire as an ally against the Dominion, whilst gaining sovereignty. The Empire would find this beneficial because it keeps Ulfric's forces as an asset against the Dominion for a war that is all but inevitable at this point. In what way is this a big brother-vassal-state relationship? The Stormcloaks would not be paying taxation to the Empire or be living by its laws, and only subjecting itself to Imperial obligations should either side find itself at war with the Dominion, and then only to create a unified command to better maintain organization. Neither side can stand alone against the Dominion and hope to win without a miracle, and the civil war would only drain the strength of both the legion and Ulfric's forces, an outcome desired by the Dominion.

If you don't like the idea, thats one thing, but you are not coming up with any alternative solution other than the same hardline that all the other stormcloak supports demand. You act as if it's the Nords against the Imperials, but might i remind you that a greater number of Nords chose to remain loyal to the Empire within Skyrim, and that discounts the Nords living abroad outside of the province. Ulfric commands the loyalty of a only a minority of Nords in Skyrim, so ceding the entirety the province would not only be unfair to the majority of the Nords who side with the Empire, but wouldn't be much of a compromise for the Empire itself as it's more or less exactly what the hard-line stormcloak demands are. I think the best solution would be a division of the province based on majority loyalties of the hold, and an open border policy for any Nords wishing to leave Imperial Skyrim for Stormcloak Skyrim and vice versa. Then would come the issue of what to do about the real enemy, the Aldmeri Dominion.

If you truly feel threatened by the Empire commanding Stormcloak forces in the event of war, then what alternative would you suggest? A unified command is far more effective than multiple commands, and if the Dominion where to invade again we will need all the advantages we can get.




The issue is of birthing, not maintainable populations. If Humans could have 100 children every year who lived for 500 years, do you really think the governments would allow for such unrestricted behavior? We would destroy ourselves within a few generations due to massed strain on the environments. It is far more likely, especially given the dramatic change of fertility rates experienced in Morrowind, that the lower populations are a result of self imposed restrictions, not natural ones.

Typical Imperial arrogance! (=P)

Offer a hand of friendship, arm the other for a knife in the back, and condescend with Cyrodillic snobbery. I'm suprised you're skin isn't turning gold. The Dominion must be so proud.

Why should the Empire accept giving away a province in return for nothing? This is exactly the hardline dispositioned stormcloak attitude I've been talking about, you refuse to compromise on anything despite having only a minority of Nordish population in Skyrim supporting your cause. To say nothing of the Nords who do not wish to become part of Ulfric's Kingdom, what of them? A division of the land is the only practical solution, the Nords who want to stay in the Empire can, while those who wish to succeed can do so. Migration programs can be setup to allow for easier passage for those seeking to move to the other side, with accommodations and new start packages being provided by the respective governments.

Is it? Look back on the prior posts and you will see a distinct shortage of any stormcloak supporter willing to even consider negotiations, while even fewer seem to be willing to accept anything less than the hardline demands. The Imperial supporters on the other hand seem to be willing to make concessions to end the war, despite what the majority of the Nords desire.

"The issue is of birthing, not maintainable populations. If Humans could have 100 children every year who lived for 500 years, do you really think the governments would allow for such unrestricted behavior? We would destroy ourselves within a few generations due to massed strain on the environments. It is far more likely, especially given the dramatic change of fertility rates experienced in Morrowind, that the lower populations are a result of self imposed restrictions, not natural ones."


Yes.. Have you taken a look at the population of Earth ? It's already VASTLY overpopulated, VASTLY. And that population is rising all the time. Europe is crammed full of more people than it can handle, same with the US, the only way they can survive is due to the global economy and the mass importing of food products from other countries and the industrial manufacturing of food. Were these things to be taken away, we'd all starve and kill each other in riots. That's an incredibly dangerous situation to let happen, it's a ticking timebomb, yet our governments have let it happen, because they can't see beyond their own borders, they're only concerned with growing their own economy, growing their population etc. etc.

The same I imagine applies to governments in Tamriel.

Cryodill shoulda not stepped in a banned a well known tradition that the empire itself does legally.
The empire was the first to bare its blade at the civil war. The duel was not murder but a duel, seperate just like a legal step in climbing the ladder.
The empire didnt like the results and outlawed a man theyve alrdy abandoned once, this makes twice.

Sons of skyrim will have no truce now, not until the empire is out of our backyard and back into theirs while we get our house in order.
I pray the empire is smart enough to try to make amends while we get our house in order, because know damn well we wont forget. Afted the damn High Elves are dead and their country is burning, we will save a bit of our retribution against u cyrodill, pretenders of the septim empire.

You will remember why we are feared in battle.

So be smart and start making amends and make them good, or else you will remember the sons of skyrim and talos himself bear our witness, we will end what he started. Hell we have alrdy had his blessing for at least 200 years.

I've been enjoying the tongue in cheek topic so far, but overpopulation is a berserk button for me.

Bear in mind that we are overpopulated more due to packing ourselves into tiny places, rather than due to lack of space. There are huge swathes of landmass that could easily give everyone on earth a large area to live in, with room to spare. We just tend to clump together in melting pots.

I get angry at the 'we don't have enough food to sustan out population' arguement too; do you know how much food is wasted and goes rotten daily in the west? Its criminal, and wasteful. My friend has worked at a UK supermarket for several years, and they have a bakery section. At the end of the day, they usually have at least a third of the stuff baked left over. However, 'regulatons' state that they cannot take it home, nor buy it. Not do they sell it the next day, even if the shelf-life is days. It all has to go into the bin. There are also regulations of fruit shape and size that farmers have to conform with to sell their produce. They cannot sell a bannana if its too straight. Regulations to stop overfishing don;t actually stop it, they just stop it from being brought ashore and sold. Tons of dead fish are dumped before ships return to land the world over.

Giving goverment control of childbirth and family planning? Because that is working out great for China and its terminal lack of females babies due to their one-child policy and everyone wanting sons. And thats not even getting into the amount that are killed, Altmer style, because they are not what the parents wanted. Not to mentiont hat despite the overall population, the west is dying, since we arn;t making enough children to sustain out societies.

...

Wow, I probobly shouldn't post this. But the sort of thinking you profess genuinly scares me due to the amount of trust it requires on policians and goverment. I won't continue with this line of conversation in topic, because I don't want to nuke what is an otherwise fun thread. I just felt this needed to be said. If anyone wants to curse at me and/or continue, please feel free to PM me a response.

Hm. Guess there is a reason I prefer the Stormcloak route. D=

Skyrim belongs to the Nords? Then are you ignoring the Dunmer influence on Nord culture. Such as the College of Winterhold being once full with Dunmer mages and now, we have a Dunmer housecarl for the Jarl of Whiterun. Or Imperial rule on Nord culture. The Empire needs to stand together and Skyrim's selfishness will mean the death of everyone else.

For the Empire!

It's half and half, not a majority. Rikke says "more join his cause every day."

And I've posted what the compromise is. Nord sovereignty with Cyrodiil negotiating on equal terms with Skyrim as a free nation. If they can't accept that, that's too bad. Your "concessions" are basically "you do what we want and we get to keep half your country and most of your resources for our own disposal." That's a nice deal you're working out for the empire there.

I'm perfectly wiling to negotiate. Here's an idea: the Empire allows Skyrim to secede and become an independent nation, free from Imperial regulation and therefore no longer bound to the terms of the WGC. In return they get a free trade agreement and a mutual defense treaty with regard to any future conflicts with the Dominion. And because Skyrim becomes a Thalmor-free zone while still remaining a staunch ally, both sides get a staging ground on which to prepare for eventual war with the Dominion, one that is not crawling with Thalmor who are free to roam the country for intel and surveillance with Imperial protection and support.

And it doesn't matter if you are willing to make concessions if your concessions do not address the main issue at hand, which is the WGC and resultant Thalmor presence in Imperial territory. Negotiations are only possible if both sides have something to offer that the other side wants and is willing to compromise in order to get. If the Empire can't offer all of Skyrim freedom from the terms of the WGC and its Thalmor enforcers, then IMO they can't offer anything that makes a compromise worthwhile to those whose main goal is exactly that.

A small, demoralized group of Thalmor? Please. You can give your opinion but don't spout [censored] to make it seem more agreeable. If you're doing this on purpose, go [censored] yourself, if not, I suggest you re-read The Great War. Hammerfell fought Lady Arannelya's army, which was the largest Aldmeri army and didn't experience any of the fighting in Cyrodiil.

Attacking the Embassy forces the Thalmor to take direct action against the Stormcloaks regardless.

Gentlemen lets calm down!!! Perhaps i have a idea? Ulfric steps down from his "position" as high king, and swears loyalty to the emperor and skyrim becomes "officially" a province, however only in name and military. in return, Skyrim gets control all of all its taxes, profit, relationship, trade, Policy, religion. Also the empire should be allowed to keep a garrison of men in Skyrim.

Two problems with that, first off Ulfric can't step down as High King because he isn't High King. The position of High King will be filled by a Jarl to be named later, once a moot is held. And if the Empire tries to place restrictions on who is and isn't allowed to be High King, then we're back to square one on one of the main issues at hand, namely the belief on the part of the secessionists that the Empire has too much control over Skyrim's local leadership and will use that control to their own advantage and Skyrim's detriment.

Second, as long as Skyrim is officially a province of the Empire, bound by fealty to the Emperor, the ban on Talos worship and the right of the Thalmor to enforce it will remain in place. If the Empire allows concessions with regard to religious freedom in any of its provinces they will be in violation of the WGC. I think history already shows that the Empire is not willing to violate the WGC or piss off the Thalmor in order to protect the freedoms and traditions of their Nord subjects, and there is no indication that they are ready and willing to do so now.

Never finished the Imperial side of the CW, have you? Tullius pretty much spells it out that the interbellum with the Thalmor is on the verge of expiring. And both Rikke and Tullius all but explicitly state their disdain for the Thalmor.

That's something I've noticed... Stormcloak people, both in game and in IRL discussions, seem to want to pretend that the Empire has no ulterior plan, that they're a Thalmor lapdog through and through, and that they actually are in favor of the Talos ban. From the sound of Alvor, the Empire probably was hoping that the Nords would just be a bit discrete about it... but then again, "true nords" aren't exactly versed in discretion.

Both Rikke and Hadvar still both do it in the closet. And so do other Imperials; I found a Talos shrine in the Rift surrounded by offerings comprised of a variety of Legion paraphernalia. When Rikke bids Ulfric a final goodbye citing Talos, Tullius pretends not to hear it. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Yes, I have in fact finished the CW on the side of the Legion, and I know what he says. It's irrelevant what he thinks and what he wants. It doesn't matter if Tullius, Rikke, and every soldier in the Legion hate the Thalmor with a burning passion. They are not the ones who will be making the decision to go to war or not. If you have done Season Unending, you know that Elenwen was brought to the ceasefire negotiations as part of the Imperial delegation. I'm sure she had plenty of reasons for wanting to be there, but her "official" role was to insure that Tullius did not agree to anything on the Empire's behalf that would violate the terms of the WGC. He couldn't make the kind of concessions required to reach a mutually satisfactory compromise even if he wanted to, and neither can the Emperor himself unless he's willing to tell the Thalmor to stick their treaty where the sun don't shine right this very minute. They are clearly not ready and willing to do that, so the kind of "compromise" being suggested would never be possible. They can't guarantee religious freedom to Skyrim while still retaining it as a province AND stay within the bounds of their treaty with the Dominion, and they can't continue to deny religious freedom to Skyrim for the sake of the treaty and hope to negotiate any compromise with the secessionists at all.


I've never believed that the Empire likes the WGC, or is in favor of the Talos ban. However I base my RP decisions and in-game loyalties with regard to the CW on the current situation I see around me, not what some other people want to believe is going to happen in the future because they've already decided that the Empire will surely do this and Skyrim alone can't do that and the Dominion is sure to do some other thing and obviously the Imperial solution is the right one because they can predict the future and it's only rosy if the Empire is running things. Sorry, no.

Whether or not the Empire likes the Talos ban is irrelevant; they agreed to it, and agreed to the enforcement of it by a foreign and admittedly hostile government. Choices were made, and those choices have consequences. The consequences don't go away just because those choices looked like the best possible options at the time to the people who made them.

If the Thalmor are the true enemy, I would rather be free to fight them on my own terms and my own schedule than wait around until an Empire that is already crawling with their agents finally gets around to it. If they are the true enemy and the Empire chooses not to fight them with me when the time comes, then the Empire was never worthy of my allegiance in the first place.

And if the Thalmor are the true enemy and the Empire truly intends to fight them at some time in the future, IMO they would be better off letting Skyrim go its own way now in return for its full and unflinching support and assistance when the war does come.

For what purpose, other than a dying empire trying to hold on to the last vestiges of its old authority?

How about that so-called emperor give up his title and turn his legions over to Ulfric's command.


Talk is cheap.

Everyone! I have a special message from the Future High King, Ulfric StormCloak.

Please reveiew his message without the Brandy, Skooma, Wine, or anything else... enjoy it with a nice Flagon of Mead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL4vR3PB2oY&feature=relmfu

I originally sided Empire because I always thought it was a good thing in games past, but 200 years changes a lot, and when I did StormCloak I sided with them, they are right and honourable.

The Empire is at a period of change. It's at that critical moment where it could be something more and that critical moment, if passed, will revitalize the Empire underneath the Mede dynasty.

Ulfric is not a good leader. Ulfric's disdain for the Thalmor is in words only, just like Tullius. Only difference is that Tullius is smart and he knows to conceal it. To keep your plans as dark as night, a famous principle of Sun Tzu. I'd rather have a general who knows what he's doing. Tullius is so much more than Ulfric Stormcloak.