Hypocritical Stormcloaks... : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:17 am

The empire is comprised of all manner of races from all manner of backgrounds, necessarily resulting in a system that considers all views when making it's policy decisions.

But which will ultimately do what is best for Cyrodiil and her ruling Imperial elite even if it means throwing other races/provinces to the wolves in whole or in part in order to protect itself. Were they beholden to Hammerfell and the Redguards? Were they beholden to protect the freedoms and rights of the Nords of Skyrim? Apparently not, or if so then we know exactly how much their "consideration" is worth when the chips are down.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:55 am

Yes, I'm aware that one version of the story equates the individual Tiber Septim with the god Talos. Another version states that Talos is an amalgamation of Tiber and a couple other individuals with whom he was associated, or was thought to be associated, and all of whom become indistinguishable from each other over time. Either way, Tiber Septim was a man who was Emperor, Talos is the god that Tiber (or Tiber + others) became.

And either way it makes no difference. Worshipping Tiber/Talos and wanting to break away from the current Empire is not hypocritical. The current Empire has officially repudiated and abandoned Talos and the legacy of Tiber Septim. Breaking away from it in its current state is an act of loyalty to Talos the god, if it's an act of disloyalty to the memory of Tiber Septim the man then it's no worse than what the Empire itself has already done.

Sorry, no. The Dunmer were given that section of Windhelm when they fled Morrowind 150+ years ago. Ulfric had nothing to do with it. When Dunmer refugees began arriving the Jarls of Skyrim agreed to make room for them in their holds where they could live as a separate, self-governing people with little or no civil, political, or military obligations to the local or provincial rulers. Essentially the Grey Quarter is a separate nation existing inside Windhelm and was given to the Dunmer free and clear (and presumably the original occupants were either evicted or left voluntarily to make room for them). They did not pay for it, they were not forced to live there by Ulfric or anyone else, and they are solely responsible for it. AFAIK there is no information on what condition it was in when they arrived, but if it wasn't a slum when they got there then they have allowed it to become and remain one. If it was a slum then they've done nothing to change that. Most of them appear to be working, at least one owns and runs a store and another owns a farm outside the city. Civic improvements in the Grey Quarter are their own responsibility and if they've spent the past century putting their money towards other things then that's not the fault of Ulfric and the Nords of Windhelm.

He says and does nothing in the game to indicate this.

I'll concede you the Talos worship - Fair enough that they worshipped / followed with the OLD Empire, and the new one doesn't hold true to what they believe in. Fair enough.

However, I'm holding to what I said about the ghetto in Windhelm. True, they haven't done much to improve it, but how could they without Breaking down walls of the city or expanding into the main city area of Windhelm (both of which I doubt Ulfric would be willing to let them do). And yes, they were given that section to live in as a Dunmer society. However, they are now hardly even allowed OUTSIDE of that district by the Stormcloaks, unless it is to leave the city (mentioned by the dark elves if you talk to them). Also, the dark elves are repeatedly harassed by the townsfolk (who are, I admit, more racist than Ulfric himself - BUT (as others have mentioned) Ulfric does nothing to STOP them, or preventing them from that).

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:49 am

Again, there is a difference between a racist society and a faction actively feeding off that racism to secure support. The empire may not be doing anything to help matters, but they aren't actively hurting them either. The stormcloaks actively encourage these racist elements in society by using the same sort of rhetoric. Stormcloaks are condoning and normalizing these sentiments in an attempt to take the nation for themselves.

Can you give us any examples?

I don't know who these people are. I'm talking about the whole "Skyrim for the Nords" business that is the Stormcloaks central platform.

If it's the war cry you're referring, that already has been cleared. All Nords, regardless of faction, goes on about how Skyrim belongs to the Nords in battle.

I agree that the Stormcloaks are nationalistic, but being nationalistic isn't the same thing as being racist. Not even xenophobic and racist are the same thing, even though people who are xenophobic tend to be racists as well.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:51 am

But which will ultimately do what is best for Cyrodiil and her ruling Imperial elite even if it means throwing other races/provinces to the wolves in whole or in part in order to protect itself. Were they beholden to Hammerfell and the Redguards? Were they beholden to protect the freedoms and rights of the Nords of Skyrim? Apparently not, or if so then we know exactly how much their "consideration" is worth when the chips are down.

It's crazy to suggest that concessions made to secure peace after an extremely devastating war are in any way indicative of broader Imperial behavior. Ulfric willingly trades cities to secure a truce during Seasons Unending. I'm not sure how that's significantly different except in terms of scale.

» Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:58 pm

Context, sir. Read what I said again.

And... something about forts?

However, I'm holding to what I said about the ghetto in Windhelm. True, they haven't done much to improve it, but how could they without Breaking down walls of the city or expanding into the main city area of Windhelm (both of which I doubt Ulfric would be willing to let them do). And yes, they were given that section to live in as a Dunmer society. However, they are now hardly even allowed OUTSIDE of that district by the Stormcloaks, unless it is to leave the city (mentioned by the dark elves if you talk to them). Also, the dark elves are repeatedly harassed by the townsfolk (who are, I admit, more racist than Ulfric himself - BUT (as others have mentioned) Ulfric does nothing to STOP them, or preventing them from that).

There's one guy who claims that Dunmer aren't allowed to live outside the Grey Quarter- Ambarys, whom even other Dunmer say is radical (edit- actually I think Aval Atheron also says this, but his words are ambiguous as well, he's being sarcastic by saying the Nords don't think they're good enough to live anywhere else). Meanwhile there are Altmer who own property and businesses, and a Dunmer family owns a farm that employs Nords. Niranye says that it's the Dunmer's naivete and pride that keeps them stuck in the Grey Quarter. That suggests that it's not actually illegal or impossible for Dunmer to live elsewhere in the city if they want to.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:33 am

He says and does nothing in the game to indicate this.

He does however express a complete lack of interest. When Jorleif reports of unrest in the Grey Quarters, Ulfric tells him that it doesn't concern him (I don't remember the exact words), and that Jorleif can come back when he has something of importance to tell instead. Even though Ulfric doesn't have any obligations towards the Dunmer, one might argue that he should consider the risk of upcoming riots in his city a bit of a problem...

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:18 am

First, lets not look at in-game representations of infrastructure and landscape and take that as indicative of anything approaching the lore-status of the Empire. In Oblivion, the vast majority of forts were owned and operated by the local banditry organization. If anything, the Empire has made great strides in the last two hundred years.

Next, you're simply describing how dictatorships work. It's absurd to point out all the problem with this sort of system, but claim this is only an attribute of the Empire. Ulfric's system will not change things in the least. He is also less beholden to the views of all his constituents, representing only a single ethnic group. The empire is comprised of all manner of races from all manner of backgrounds, necessarily resulting in a system that considers all views when making it's policy decisions.

What's interesting to me about your argument is that it completely ignored what I actually said.

An empire that cannot conclusively defeat a bunch of amateurs in the first two weeks of the conflict is by no means assurance of victory against a Thalmor invasion. The fact that it cannot seem to keep basic infrastructure and security is another problematic indication that it just can 't protect Skyrim. Empires usualy tax provinces and such wealth is mostly spent elsewhere. So even if Ulfric's regime turns out to be a brutal and pompous dictatorship, at least SKyrim's wealth will be reinvested there, not taken away to fund some Emperor's quirks. But that's just it, we do not know how his regime will turn out ot be. Can you quote any independent references in the lore that show the Empire acting in the benevolent conciliating non-discriminatory way you describe?

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:22 am

However, I'm holding to what I said about the ghetto in Windhelm. True, they haven't done much to improve it, but how could they without Breaking down walls of the city or expanding into the main city area of Windhelm (both of which I doubt Ulfric would be willing to let them do). And yes, they were given that section to live in as a Dunmer society. However, they are now hardly even allowed OUTSIDE of that district by the Stormcloaks, unless it is to leave the city (mentioned by the dark elves if you talk to them). Also, the dark elves are repeatedly harassed by the townsfolk (who are, I admit, more racist than Ulfric himself - BUT (as others have mentioned) Ulfric does nothing to STOP them, or preventing them from that).

Are you kidding me? Not ALLOWED out of the quarter? There's a Dunmer who runs a stall in the marketplace every day. There's a Dunmer who owns and runs a farm outside the city. There's no guard preventing anyone from going in or out of the Grey Quarter regardless of race, there are at least two different ways out of the quarter into the city center and/or palace area, which is only one less than I have from Hjerim and two of mine require me to walk through a freakin' graveyard.

Improving the quarter doesn't mean breaking through walls into other people's property, much less taking away other people's property so the Dunmer can expand on what they were already given. How about they take down their tatty banners and put up nice new ones, for one thing? How about some of them spend less time drinking in their club and more time on the street or in each others' homes fixing or cleaning up whatever it is that makes them consider the quarter a slum?

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:03 pm

Can you give us any examples?

Talk to any stormcloak:

"True sons of Skyrim."
"Skyrim for the Nords."

While these comments on their own might be indicative of the racism throughout Nord society, taken within the context of a revolutionary force seeking to assert dominance over a nation and it becomes far more worrisome. For example, if you meet a racist in real life, you may be put off by them, but it wouldn't on it's own be of significant importance. If a political party espousing these same views ran for office and attracted a large amount of support, it would definitely be more worrisome.

There is also this:
"Many non-Nords and also some Nords, such as http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter, consider him to be too prejudiced. In his city Windhelm, the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer live in a part of the city called the Gray Quarter, the segregated slums of Windhelm. Likewise, Argonians have been banished to the outskirts of Windhelm. Brunwulf claims that Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits, even though he is "the first to sound the horn" when Nord villages are being threatened. Neither Ulfric nor his loyalists display intolerance towards the Dragonborn regardless of his or her racial background, however. If the player completes the Civil War on the side of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Legion and Ulfric Stormcloak is executed, many in the Dunmer population of the city unanimously and quite vocally accept Brunwulf as the new Jarl, with many certain that their lives will be better."

If it's the war cry you're referring, that already has been cleared. All Nords, regardless of faction, goes on about how Skyrim belongs to the Nords in battle.

I agree that the Stormcloaks are nationalistic, but being nationalistic isn't the same thing as being racist. Not even xenophobic and racist are the same thing, even though people who are xenophobic tend to be racists as well.

It is when you define your nation by it's race. They aren't saying, "Skyrim for the folks who live here!" for a reason.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:06 am

I understand the grievances of the Stormcloaks, but I despite Ulfric as an opportunistic manipulator. All he wants is power at any cost, he doesn't care that hes walking right into the Dominion's plotting and he doesn't care that this is making everyone a lot more vulnerable to them as well. Hes so short-term thinking it's pathetic.

By going with the Imperials you are condemning the people of Skyrim with an Empire that is near it's end.

Skyrim needs out of this weak, fragile and petty Empire and in the Short-Term, Ulfric would be the best person to do so. Since he's a good speaker, a strong warrior and a great rallying point for Skyrim's defence.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:14 am

Talk to any stormcloak:

"True sons of Skyrim."
"Skyrim for the Nords."

It is when you define your nation by it's race. They aren't saying, "Skyrim for the folks who live here!" for a reason.

In a universe where each race has a specific homeland designated to them, it isn't racist.

The Dunmer enslaved, abused and ostracised all "outlanders".

The Altmer disallow all Non-Altmer from the Summerset Isles.

The Bosmer and the Khajiit constantly war most likely due to their racial heritage and differences.

The Bretons and the Redguards regularly pillage Orsinium.

The Imperials have used propaganda to racially abuse their enemies.

The list goes on...

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:00 am

It is when you define your nation by it's race. They aren't saying, "Skyrim for the folks who live here!" for a reason.

But this is beside the point, since the empire is run by and for Cyrodiils. It wasn't in the past, but that is what it has become now.

All the races in Tamriel are selfish and inward-looking, that goes without saying. The Septims were able to overcome these tendencies because they represented a rare synthesis of human (not Mer or beast race, to be sure) cooperation with a very powerful man and some very powerful artifacts. The Bretons, Cyrodiils and Nords could all claim a piece of Tiber and his line, and the others had to fall in or be stomped. This empire did produce some positive effects. But it's gone. The Medes aren't the Septims, the empire no longer represents a quorum of other races, everyone but the original human core has abandoned ship.

All this is beside the fact that the empire was built on a racist ideal- that the Nord-Cyrodiil coalition had the right to rule over everyone else. If you object to Stormcloaks on this basis, you have to object to the empire on the same basis. And then I don't know what you're left with.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:52 am

As much as I despise the Imperials, and all races of Men, but Imperials above all, the Stormcloaks are far, far worse. The people of Skyrim also agree, calling Stormcloaks thugs if they win the war. The Imperials really are the lesser of two evils, but they make me wonder why people dislike the Thalmor. Both Imperials and Altmer are arrogant, but at least the Altmer have reason to be. They created the writing and language of Tamriel, have superior architecture, (according to lore anyway), and "powerful wizards". What do the Imperials have? Elven words and speech for their speechcraft, a city built by Mer, and restoration, which everyone knows isn't a valid school of magic.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:52 am

And... something about forts?

Press Z was using the in game representation of forts as evidence that the Empire was unable to maintain their infrastructure. I said that it's silly to base lore arguments off of in game representations when engine/hardware limitations or design decisions might be far more likely culprits. I then said even if we take these in game representation as accurate, forts in the heartland of Cyrodiil were all run by bandits. Skyrim, on the other hand, actually has imperial camps and fortifications. If anything then, the Empire has improved their infrastructure since the Oblivion crisis.

An empire that cannot conclusively defeat a bunch of amateurs in the first two weeks of the conflict is by no means assurance of victory against a Thalmor invasion.

I don't know what this means. I've never talked about the Thalmor. I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "amateurs". The stormcloaks? Some are ex-legion, and Nords make up some of the legions deadliest soldiers. They're equipped with armor and weapons and have successfully taken half of the province. I'm not sure why they'd be considered amateurs.

The fact that it cannot seem to keep basic infrastructure and security is another problematic indication that it just can 't protect Skyrim. Empires usualy tax provinces and such wealth is mostly spent elsewhere. So even if Ulfric's regime turns out to be a brutal and pompous dictatorship, at least SKyrim's wealth will be reinvested there, not taken away to fund some Emperor's quirks. But that's just it, we do not know how his regime will turn out ot be. Can you quote any independent references in the lore that show the Empire acting in the benevolent conciliating non-discriminatory way you describe?

I already addressed the infrastructure issue. I don't know why Skyrim money staying in Skyrim necessarily means better times for everybody. It's not like tax money gets shoveled into a pit somewhere. It's equally likely that taxes from other provinces go to benefit the people of Skyrim, aid that won't be available if they've secured independence.

The empire has granted some degree of autonomy to all the provinces within it's domain. That's why you still see unique cultures and governments. Beyond that, simple logic. The Empire allows for representational government. They have members of different races in leadership positions and this necessarily affects the way policy decisions are handled. Skyrim's government is entirely Nord run. You might see a non-Nord in an advisory position, but even this is rare. They will therefore be, on average, less receptive to non-Nord opinions, if only because there is less diversity in general.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:27 am

Spoiler

He didn't just face it, he EMBRACED it.

YES. Ulfric is a coward, unwittingly controlled by the Thalmor. He is causing a beneficial distraction and further weaking the empire, which will work in the Thalmor's favor..

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:45 am

Anyone who insists the Empire surrendered to The Thalmor are tragic victims of Stormcloak propaganda.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:41 am

Talk to any stormcloak:

"True sons of Skyrim."
"Skyrim for the Nords."

While these comments on their own might be indicative of the racism throughout Nord society, taken within the context of a revolutionary force seeking to assert dominance over a nation and it becomes far more worrisome. For example, if you meet a racist in real life, you may be put off by them, but it wouldn't on it's own be of significant importance. If a political party espousing these same views ran for office and attracted a large amount of support, it would definitely be more worrisome.

There is also this:
"Many non-Nords and also some Nords, such as http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter, consider him to be too prejudiced. In his city Windhelm, the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer live in a part of the city called the Gray Quarter, the segregated slums of Windhelm. Likewise, Argonians have been banished to the outskirts of Windhelm. Brunwulf claims that Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits, even though he is "the first to sound the horn" when Nord villages are being threatened. Neither Ulfric nor his loyalists display intolerance towards the Dragonborn regardless of his or her racial background, however. If the player completes the Civil War on the side of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Legion and Ulfric Stormcloak is executed, many in the Dunmer population of the city unanimously and quite vocally accept Brunwulf as the new Jarl, with many certain that their lives will be better."

It is when you define your nation by it's race. They aren't saying, "Skyrim for the folks who live here!" for a reason.

Seriously, can we please get past the whole "Skryim for the Nords" = Stormcloak slogan and therefore they are racist thing? That is NOT a Stormcloak slogan. The Nords IN THE LEGION will scream this at you if you are fighting them on behalf of the Stormcloaks and ARE ALSO A NORD. Random Nords encountered anywhere in Skyrim will yell this when they go into battle, regardless of the race of their opponent or the reason for the fight. It is NOT a "Stormcloak" thing. If it's indicative of xenophobia or racism or extreme nationalism then every Nord in Skyrim who ever raises a weapon is just as guilty of those things as any Stormcloak you meet.

Also, regarding Brunwulf, he's all talk and nothing but.

Spoiler

You can hear him in the street promising the Dunmer that he'll go talk to Ulfric on their behalf. When he goes to the Palace, does he talk to Ulfric? About the Dunmer? About anything? No. No he does not. He avails himself of the free buffet in the main hall, eating and drinking his fill at the expense of the man he talks **** about in public, then leaves without talking to Ulfric about anything. He complains to you about how Ulfric spends and doesn't spend the public money, and then eats his meals on the public dime.

Oh, and that group of bandits that he sends you to take care of? The ones Ulfric won't do anything about because they aren't threatening any Nords? Yeah, I've been paid by the steward for clearing the same bandit lair, because Ulfric issued a bounty on the lot of them.

Even after Brunwulf is made Jarl, nothing really changes. He talks about doing something in the Grey Quarter, now that the war's over and there might be some extra money available - money he will have that Ulfric didn't, I might add - but doesn't do anything. The Dunmer are still segregated as far as their living arrangements, whether by policy or choice we don't know. The Argonians are still forbidden to enter the city - by Brunwulf's order in continuation of the existing policy - and the Khajiit are still persona non grata inside the walls as well.

» Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:01 am

Seriously, can we please get past the whole "Skryim for the Nords" = Stormcloak slogan and therefore they are racist thing? That is NOT a Stormcloak slogan. The Nords IN THE LEGION will scream this at you if you are fighting them on behalf of the Stormcloaks and ARE ALSO A NORD. Random Nords encountered anywhere in Skyrim will yell this when they go into battle, regardless of the race of their opponent or the reason for the fight. It is NOT a "Stormcloak" thing. If it's indicative of xenophobia or racism or extreme nationalism then every Nord in Skyrim who ever raises a weapon is just as guilty of those things as any Stormcloak you meet.

Again, there is a difference between John Doe on the street being racist and a group vying for political control being racist. This shouldn't be difficult to grasp. Political Party A may have racist members, but the stated goal of that political party is no singular ethnic dominance. Political Party B is both filled with racist members and does does fight for singular ethnic dominance.

Also, regarding Brunwulf, he's all talk and nothing but.

Spoiler

You can hear him in the street promising the Dunmer that he'll go talk to Ulfric on their behalf. When he goes to the Palace, does he talk to Ulfric? About the Dunmer? About anything? No. No he does not. He avails himself of the free buffet in the main hall, eating and drinking his fill at the expense of the man he talks **** about in public, then leaves without talking to Ulfric about anything. He complains to you about how Ulfric spends and doesn't spend the public money, and then eats his meals on the public dime.

Oh, and that group of bandits that he sends you to take care of? The ones Ulfric won't do anything about because they aren't threatening any Nords? Yeah, I've been paid by the steward for clearing the same bandit lair, because Ulfric issued a bounty on the lot of them.

Even after Brunwulf is made Jarl, nothing really changes. He talks about doing something in the Grey Quarter, now that the war's over and there might be some extra money available - money he will have that Ulfric didn't, I might add - but doesn't do anything. The Dunmer are still segregated as far as their living arrangements, whether by policy or choice we don't know. The Argonians are still forbidden to enter the city - by Brunwulf's order in continuation of the existing policy - and the Khajiit are still persona non grata inside the walls as well.

Also again, it's absurd to make judgements based on in game representations of events. All you've said is that Bethesda implemented a poorly thought out radiant quest system and barely reflects the consequences of your decisions. Whether Brunwulf is a hypocrite or not is irrelevant.