Quest-locked dungeons are utter [censored].

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:53 am

Let's take Saarthal for instance. It's being excavated by the College of Winterhold ... HOW DARE BETH NOT LET ME EXPLORE IT WITHOUT JOINING A GUILD!
And Snow Veil Sanctum ..l the place is locked down tight by someone ... HOW DARE BETH NOT LET ME EXPLORE IT ARRGGHHH!

If they let you go wherever you want, I bet you'd be the first person t complain when you break a quest. I love the way Bethesda handled quest dungeons. Well done, Bethesda!

This.

If things weren't Quest-locked, then it would be almost impossible to explore without breaking a quest... any quest. Then I can only imagine the level of butt-hurt crying about how only five quests in the game can be completed...

The way it is now is clean, orderly, and saves the continuity of most every Quest-line in the game. Having places and items quest-locked is not only necessary, but is also beautifully done in The Elder Scrolls series.
User avatar
Mandi Norton
 
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:43 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:56 pm

You can't have a Big Mac if you go to Burger King if you know what I mean. That shout is a reward, I don't see anything wrong with what Bethesda has done.
...but Bethesda is not preventing us from going to McDonald's.
User avatar
Christie Mitchell
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:44 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:26 am


...but Bethesda is not preventing us from going to McDonald's.
Indeed.
And on that basis maybe the OP should go to McDonalds instead and regain some perspective.
User avatar
louise fortin
 
Posts: 3327
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:51 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:01 am

If things weren't Quest-locked, then it would be almost impossible to explore without breaking a quest... any quest. Then I can only imagine the level of butt-hurt crying about how only five quests in the game can be completed...

The way it is now is clean, orderly, and saves the continuity of most every Quest-line in the game. Having places and items quest-locked is not only necessary, but is also beautifully done in The Elder Scrolls series.
Actually, quest-locked dungeons are not necessary; rather, what's necessary is that they design the quests so that they don't break if you explore a related interior and/or pick up a related item therein. Do that, and you remove the complaints of both groups at once since neither situation occurs.

There's already a partial example of this in the game: inside the final zone of Hag's End (that has the same name) is a false wall that is tied to a Dark Brotherhood quest. You can go there any time you want, since the location itself isn't quest-locked, however the chain for the false wall only appears if you're doing the aforementioned DB quest. Granted the 'magically concealed trigger' is a rather tired device, but it's a lot less invasive than having the entire interior arbitrarily sealed off.

Alternatively, have the quest-related portion of a given ruin be separate from the rest. Labyrinthian already does this with a side-chamber near the main door, however it has the problem that the seal is on the inner door rather than the outer one, which leaves only a small and seemingly pointless (as it's empty save for a couple of 'junk' items) vestibule accessible. In fact, you won't know said door is quest-related until you're actually on said quest, which is a bit obscure in its own right, since it gives the standard 'sealed from the other side' message that implies it's an alternative exit from the main dungeon. Which it isn't, since they're not physically connected in any way.

They could also borrow a page from the way player houses work: have quest items/NPCs start initially disabled, and then enable then when the relevant stage of the related quest is activated. That way it's literally impossible to break the quest, since the thing that would cause said breakage only exists for a given character when needed.

Oh, one other thing: DO NOT have quest stage advancement tied to body count, unless you're going to provide all the relevant bodies when necessary. The CW fort sieges do this more or less correctly, but a certain quest in Riften definitely does not, which causes unnecessary glitches and headaches.
User avatar
Jonathan Braz
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:29 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:17 pm

All of these places have to do with the lore of the guild. The Falmer statue at Irkngthand is part of the Theives' Guild because of the Eyes are worth a lot and Mercer Frey is trying to get them. And the Eyes have been a target for the TG since Gallus was Guildmaster.

Snow Veil Sanctum is important to the TG too because it's where Mercer killed Gallus and framed Karliah.

Saarthal is important because that's where the Eye of Magnus is, which is what all of the College of Winterhold quests are based around.


It all comes down to the lore of the dungeon.

But the falmer statue, Irkngrand, don't have to be locked up! It's just a statue and it's just a dwmeer ruin! They are exactly what they are, awesome, but for everyone.
You would'nt see it and go, Oh look, a giant falmer statue, I know, I'll rip it's eyes out! And if you knew, or saw shiny jewels, just stop them being removable outside the quest.
Just make it so you can't take it's eyes out so you can't break the quest by accident, and admire away.
Make it's eyes removable in the TG quest and leave the place open to all.

It's not like they don't do it elsewere in the game.

Don't hide awesome stuff away, to force people to join guilds to see it or go there.
Which is exactly what they did.

And Snow Veil Sanctum is just a generic ruin, you could always have Karliah appear if you were doing the quest.

The TG don't own these places! it's not like a secret hidden base or something.
The mages don't own Saathal, they're just excavating it, it's owned by the land.

So theres no reason, at all, why you can't go there without the quests.
User avatar
elliot mudd
 
Posts: 3426
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 8:56 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:52 pm

But the falmer statue, Irkngrand, don't have to be locked up! It's just a statue and it's just a dwmeer ruin! They are exactly what they are, awesome, but for everyone.
You would'nt see it and go, Oh look, a giant falmer statue, I know, I'll rip it's eyes out! And if you knew, or saw shiny jewels, just stop them being removable outside the quest.
Just make it so you can't take it's eyes out so you can't break the quest by accident, and admire away.
Make it's eyes removable in the TG quest and leave the place open to all.

It's not like they don't do it elsewere in the game.

Don't hide awesome stuff away, to force people to join guilds to see it or go there.
Which is exactly what they did.

And Snow Veil Sanctum is just a generic ruin, you could always have Karliah appear if you were doing the quest.

The TG don't own these places! it's not like a secret hidden base or something.
The mages don't own Saathal, they're just excavating it, it's owned by the land.

So theres no reason, at all, why you can't go there without the quests.

The Thieves Guild specifically states that they tried to find a way to the Falmer statue in Irkngrand, but were unable to, so Gaius gave up on it.

Saarthal's being excavated by the College of Winterhold. True they don't own it, but they still aren't about to let some unaffiliated person come in and start A) Smashing up the place along with all its valuable artifacts or B) Stealing said valuable artifacts.

Snow Veil Sanctum is a little bit harder to justify, but Karliah could have sabotaged the entrance so that Mercer (and the Skeleton Key) had to come to get the job done.
User avatar
~Sylvia~
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:19 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:05 pm

The one thing I take away from this thread is to shut up and eat your Big Mac because there's people starving in Africa.
User avatar
El Khatiri
 
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:43 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:44 am

The only part I might agree with is that some other quests require you to get to areas only accessible from other quests. I mean, the Stones of Braenziah would be better if you wouldn't need to collect all of them.

Other than that... well duh, some areas are quest only.
But let us use big words like "ruining immersion" even if that has absolutely nothing to do with all this and how this somehow ruins choices and the like, showing how much you know about how these kinds of games work.
Oh and that sig is [censored] stupid.
User avatar
Riky Carrasco
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:17 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:27 am

So if you’re role playing how would you even know there was a word wall in a locked location or anything for that matter? Reading a website to find out where things are is what destroys immersion. The way I see it, a group got to a location before me and have claimed it for themselves preventing access unless I’m part of that group or I find a way to infiltrate the group. A locked door that I can’t pick just means it’s a special unpickable lock. Of course I’m sure there is no such thing as an unpickable lock, what was I thinking.
User avatar
clelia vega
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:04 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:56 pm

I also dislike quest locked dungeons. I looked for a lever for a long time before going to a wiki to find that the sliding wall only is available for the DB quest line.
Not a great mechanism.
User avatar
^_^
 
Posts: 3394
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 12:01 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:09 am

I also dislike quest locked dungeons. I looked for a lever for a long time before going to a wiki to find that the sliding wall only is available for the DB quest line.
Not a great mechanism.
I fail to see why this should be a problem. You have no access to it for the time being.
That's entirely reasonable.
User avatar
Emma Copeland
 
Posts: 3383
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:37 am

Previous

Return to V - Skyrim