Cats have padded paws which make their footfalls much quieter, sometimes boarder line silent. Not only do cats have night vision (in near complete darkness) they can also see somewhat farther than humans. Their sense of hearing, smell, etc are better than a humans. They are more agile, etc.

A predatory cat, such as a panther, can sneak far better, naturally, than a human. Far better. Even domesticated cats can.


They have a huge impact?

Where's the huge impact when picking between a Nord Warrior and an Orc Warrior? Their "huge" impact is, at best, a once a day ability. Where's even the huge impact between picking a Dark Elf Warrior and an Orc Warrior or Nord Warrior?

No,


That doesn't sound like too bad an idea. Starting bonuses mean almost nothing as it is.

Meh. Racial perks are not something i can agree with.

There is no reason why they couldnt be just as good, so, yes, they should be able to be as good.


Why bring back visual attributes? They are still in the game, just hidden under the 3 categories. What you propose would simply give them a visual interface and still serve no more purpose then they do now.

As for controlling the attribute leveling based on race, no thanks. As I said above, there is no reason 2 races couldn't be equal in any regard, so why should they be limited? My argonian can be just as strong as any orc, or as good with magic as any elf, and that is how the game should stay. Freedom to be who I want to be.

Basically this will force people to play a stereotypical race based class unless they want a tough time doing something else. That is something I don't stand behind.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races


Plenty of lore there.



The fact that they're a fictional race and that is what their creators said seems to be a good enough reason.

"Khajiit are a fair-skinned people who are extremely hardy, intelligent, and agile." -Arena
"You are part of a tawny-skinned people, extremely hardy, intelligent, and agile. " -Daggerfall
"The Khajiit are a race of feline humanoids hailing from the province of Elsweyr, well-known for their keen intelligence and agility. " -Oblivion

Skyrim still describes them like that!

"Hailing from the province of Elsweyr, they are intelligent, quick, and agile. "

They just dumbed down the game too much to actually represent that in game this time around.


Their natural agility surely helps as well.

Edit:



In an RPG, your choices should have consequences. This isn't CoD(at least not yet)


The reason is lore and to make choosing a different race more than just aesthetics.


He shouldn't be able to though.

"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in any marsh-like environment from which they hail. They are known for their intelligence, agility, and speed. "
"These sophisticated barbarian beast peoples of the Wrothgarian and Dragontail Mountains are noted for their unshakeable courage in war and their unflinching endurance of hardships. "

Actually looking through the pages I linked to before. Orcs aren't really known for their strength. They're up there, but other races are stronger. It's their endurance that they're known for.

That doesn't help if they wear metal shoes like everyone else. Night Vision is covered in the game already (though note for cats this comes at the expense of vision in bright light which is slightly worse than humans). Their FOV is a bit better than people, but not significantly, and comes at the expense of having a smaller binocular field. I've not heard or read anything that implies cats can see farther than humans. One would expect this to NOT be the case for cats that have smaller eyes than humans (as this is largely an issue of eye size). Hearing is largely equivalent to humans though their can hear higher pitched noises (benefits of rotating ears exist, but would disappear in meaningful armor that protected those ears). In any case, hearing and smell don't have a lot to do with stealth..more like detecting stealth.

Further, some of these comparisons have a lot to do with the fact humans evolved to LEARN far, far more than cats ever did. Should Khajit all be imbeciles because of this? I think not. We can figure they have a vast array of things that a common animal might be good at which they have to learn to be good at.

Which is why the armor you wear should affect your sneaking.


No it's not. Eagles have smaller eyes than us, but can spot a rabbit a mile away.

Elves and Drow versus Humans.

Takes Elves from Tolkien for example. Tolkien Elves can run on top of snow while Humans would sink into it. You could apply that to Cats vs Nords.

Drow (and Elves), in D&D, can nearly run at full sprint while still being silent. Not only do they have the general light footed racial trait but they also walk differently than humans. Drow can also blend into shadow much easier due to their skin color, etc. Racial traits should make a difference if you're going to add them to the equation. Currently they don't mean much.

I think that all races should start with equal skills. Skills are learnt through experience; they are not a gift that certain races are born with. Genetically, it is quite clear that Orcs and Redguards are more physically inclined while Bretons and Altmer are more cognitively inclined. With that being said, a system that implements "potential" rather than starting skills may be more suitable. An orc would have high potential in heavy armour but low potential in alteration; an orc would be able to develop his heavy armour skill more efficiently than his alteration skill based on his genetic physical and cognitive ability.

COD has nothing to do here. TES is based around the idea that we can be whoever we want. I want to be an Argonian brute who dabbles in magic. Tell me I am wrong to want this.



Lore =/= gameplay

To think like that, why are games never like the CG clips and trailers? As I said, a core concept of TES is that we can be who we want.



Forgive me on this one, it is in no way reflecting how I feel about anyone else, it is simply an example based off evolutionary facts.

Black people are typically stronger physically, and not so much mentally. Asians are typically smarter but not very strong physically. But as we all know, there are exceptions to this. Not all asians are smart, and are instead stronger. Not all black people are stronger, but rather smarter.

So now, please tell me why my Argonian can not match an Orc? Lore just gives a general understanding of the race as a whole. No where does it say ALL members of that race fall under those generalizations.

However in a fantastical world, like TES/LotR/etc, you have races, such as Elves, that are born with innate traits that aren't learned, they are already there. I've never heard, in an fantasy lore, where an Elf had to learn to be light footed, or have keen eye sight, etc.

Faster. Not stronger.

I agree in that races are born with different traits such as being light footed or having keen eye sight; no you cannot learn those because they are genetic features of an Elf. Skills do take practice. With an Elf's light footedness and keen eye sight, he would have the maximum potential in sneak and archery.

Why would I do that when I've said multiple times you should be able to?


"Darkside Eric, on 29 December 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:
The problem is, as I see it, the people on the "do anything" side seem to not understand that the people on the "restriction" side are not actually saying "do anything" can't happen, it should just be harder to do and perhaps not do as well.

Me : Exactly. It's fun to go against the grain even when there are disadvantages. I made an Elven monk once in Neverwinter Nights. Sure he didn't do as much damage as a Human monk would've and Elves are better suited to be mages, but it was fun!"


"Noworriez, on 29 December 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:
I don't race should play a big role in the game. If I want to be an orc thief or an Altmer 2 handed warrior or something I don't think the game should stop me.

Me : No one is trying to stop you. "


In an RPG, they should be as close as physically possible.


Again, what's with this strawman? Whoever said they want certain races locked out of using certain skills?





Because there is only one human race on earth(Homo Sapiens Sapiens, all the others died out long ago). The races in TES are actually different races. They don't just have a different amount of melanin in their skin. Hell, Argonians are an entirely different class! Argonians are Animalia, Chordata, Reptilia; whereas Orcs are Animalia, Chordata, Mammalia.(Assuming Elves are mammals like us of course which I believe they are) And that's just down to class. There is still Order, Familiy, Genus, and Species below that which will also be widly different.

I'm not sure if it's a "potential" really. Potential is linked to something you learn over time I believe, how well you develop something. An Elf's light footed trait already puts them over Humans with no training whatsoever. So if an Elf and a Human were to train at the same pace in Assassinry/Thievery, a Human would have to devote time to learning how to move silently while an Elf would not.

Adding enough difference to the races without forcing them to be chosen for a specific playstyle is really tricky. If my only option for making a viable two handed warrior is an orc, my only option for making a destruction mage is a dunmer, if I want an archer it would have to be a bosmer, etc, what's the fun in that?

Creating variety by removing choice is not worth it in my opinion.

And I understand that if you wanted to make an altmer 2 handed warrior, you could, no one is stopping you. It just wouldn't be as good as an orc. But then comes another problem: can you beat the game as an altmer warrior? If you can, the orc race is obsolete and playing an orc warrior would feel really OP. If you can't, you have no choice of race when making your warrior.

But no one is asking for the choice to be removed, just harder.

Again, where is this strawman coming from? Has anybody said they want this? It's not like this is an MMORPG (I've heard some horror stories about stuff like this with Wow), but even in those it works. I had a half-elf Druid in Everquest purely for RP reasons even though a half-elf's wisdom(The major stat for Druids) wasn't as good as a wood-elf's wisdom.

The foundation of ES is the lore, because its fantasy, we don't need to think about evolution or how it compares to homo sapiens. When bethesda says one race is superior to another in some specific skill, that race is superior. It's their world, they make the rules. My question was, if they are telling me that one race is well suited for certain skills, why doesn't that show up when I am playing the game? Some people on this topic have stated that all races should be able to do everything equally well, and that is wrong. Not because I say it is wrong, but because the people who designed the world told everyone playing, high elves are the most naturally gifted magic users and redgaurds are the most naturally gifted warriors, and so on. Since they made those and many other statements about races, I was just hoping that they would follow through and make a distinction in the gameplay.

What if bosmer were the best archers in the game, recieving *significant* bonuses to archery and unique perks and mechanics. And you made a nord archer instead. Would you be able to beat the game? If you were, why would you make a bosmer archer if it's not needed? For flavor? Wasn't flavor the only reason why they didn't give significant bonuses to skills for each race? And wouldn't a bosmer archer just feel really OP in comparison?

It's very hard to balance a bonus between "not needed" and "OP". I'm not saying it can't be done, but if Bethesda hasn't done it yet, there's a reason.

I prefer the current system. Different races have different advantages, giving them a jump start with certain builds. It will take a little more effort to be a thieving Orc, but it's not impossible, as you would like to have it. Also, hint hint, in Oblivion and Morrowind there were attribute and skill penalties as well as bonuses, so this is not a new idea. [censored], the only stat change female Khajiit had in Morrowind was -10 luck. So blame Bethesda for this.

So I play this intelligent scholar dude that teaches others martial arts. That makes me a very wise man. But my main thing is body control with and without weapons. I'm not into magic at all. So, intelligence and magicka is now the same thing (stat "hidden in bar").

Then comes a skill check (as in FONV, except result is hidden or you don't get the option if you don't have the skill) that checks against intelligence, because the question is of intelligent nature. Currently that would have to check against magicka, wtf? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

There are now so few skills left that we can only have intelligence related to magicka. Here some skills from another game with "a little" more depth to how attributes affect skills. WD = Wisdom = TES Intelligence, CHarisma, STrength, INtuition (kinda like our willpower, but deeper with supersition and so on), AGility, and DeXterity, CoRagous. And some negative attributes as well: SupersitioN, ACrophobia (!!!!), CLaustrophobia (!!), AVarice (okay, not suitable), NEcrophobia, CUriosity (not applicable), and Violent Temper (not applicable):

Body Skill Carouse (WD/IN/ST): The ability to hold oneself in check while visiting taverns. It affects the amount of beer, brandy and wine a character can drink before he or she becomes intoxicated.


Social Skill Convert (WD/IN/CH): The ability to convince others that your point of view is the correct one, especially in regard to religious matters. ("No, really, Norm, Ifirn said that if you gave me your sword, half your rations and dove head first into that stable over there, you'd be granted a miracle").

Social Skill Seduce (IN/CH/CH): An ability to attract members of the opposite six. When looking for assistance, it helps if your target is attracted to you.

Social Skill Streetwise (WD/IN/CH): Helps a character to find his way in a strange town It also helps him or her find unguarded shortcuts, to avoid the city guards and where to beg for the highest take.

Social Skill Lie (CR/IN/CH): The ability to make your opponent believe anything you tell him. (Ah, no That wasn't me who took your money It was, ah, it evaporated Yeah That's been happening to me a lot, too.)

Social Skill Human Nature (WD/IN/CH): Allows you to judge the probable reaction of non-player characters in your party.

Social Skill Evaluate (WD/IN/IN): This skill helps characters to your party estimate the value of artifacts and other useful items.

Nature Skills Track (WD/IN/AG): This skill is used to find animal tracks and judge the species that left them (wild pig, karen maybe a human?).

Nature Skills Orientation (WD/IN/IN): A well-honed sense of direction can be very useful, not just in the wilderness, but also down in the dungeon.

Nature Skills Herb Lore (WD/IN/DX): Not just the knowledge of where to find herbs, but also the ability to correctly identify and prepare them.

Nature Skills Animal Lore (CR/WD/IN): Knowledge of animals is especially important in combat, when knowing where to find a vulnerable spot can mean the difference between life and death.

Nature Skills Survival (IN/DX/AG): Just the skill you need to find a good spot for setting up camp, a source of water or rich hunting grounds.

And plenty more in Lore Skills, Craftmanship Skills, and Intuitive Skills, but I got lazy. How can so many here, which I expect most to have some role playing experience, fail to realize that intelligence is FAR MORE than a direct translation to available magicka points? And yes, this is actually an old CRPG (http://www.lemonamiga.com/games/docs.php?id=1335). It offered far more depth than any TES game added together, and that was accomplished with having a class based system (Skyrim is classless, all TES is classless due "custom class").

After Daggerfall, many skills was called useless by the "fans", since they didn't contribute much to combat, if at all. How can you not see the endless possibilities with attributes, if you have the ability to look beyond "magicka". However, the big enemy that can't be neglected (from a developer point of view), is that the skills listed above fails miserably in a classless/customclass "no limits" system like TES is. I, probably as the only one, would very much like to see limited to classes (but way more of them) combined with some kind of profession selection that helped define your background as you entered the game, similar to that found in Role Master. It didn't dictate where you could go from there on.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just an old goat...

Edit: Oh, I noticed I picked some skills based on INtuition rather than WisdoM, but whatever.

This has always been the case in Beth's games. Characters will start slightly different but eventually wind up with the same stats. Nothing new.

However, what DOES need to change is the forced choice of starting racial abilities. Not the inherent stuff like resistance to magic or disease; those are fine. However, forcing a PC to have a bonus to Conjuration just because the race is Breton is silly because Bretons are excellent mages, in general, not simply excellent Conjurers (obviously, since many Conjurers, like all Necromancers, are considered criminals in thee Empire). For example, there are obviously many Bretons who developed their innate skills by focusing on Destruction, Restoration, Illusion, or other schools rather than Conjuration. Therefore, selecting a specific skill within a school (i.e., the schools being Warrior, Magic, and Stealth) should be a player choice to customize the character and match the starting abilities with the character's history/background story. This is a very simple thing to do since it's only a matter of adding X points to the skill chosen.

Yes, currently we have to "play our backstory", which to me is kind of a silly thing to do.

This. So much this.

I believe the current system is best. But there's an interesting race in it, namely the Breton. Due to their racial bonuses, Breton mages are far superior to any other race. As a result, most people choose a Breton when making a mage, just because the advantages are so tempting. And that's not in comparison with the non-mage races (like Orc, Bosmer or Redguard - I barely see such mages), but when choosing between Breton, Altmer and Dunmer. Breton is a no-brainer. So basically this is an example of what the OP is suggesting - a racial bonus so significant that it makes one of the races an obvious choice for a certain playstyle.
I don't like it. I have nothing against the bonus itself - I don't need it to enjoy playing my mage character - but apparently, it destroys variety.

I agree that races should be differentiated and they should affect gameplay, but not to such an extent. I'd hate to see TES become another game where every mage is an elf and every warrior a dwarf (example not applicable in TES ) I don't think Orcs are better suited for fighting with two-handed weapons than Khajiit. Not every Orc is identical to every other. Just like in the real world, there surely are some Orc that are smaller, weaker, the ones that always heard that they bring shame to the warrior tradition of their family. It's just an example, but you see what I mean. Why wouldn't your character be such an Orc, not suited for combat? Alternatively, some Khajiit are stronger and more courageous than their peers; the Cathay are actually known for their strength, and even though Skyrim features only Suthay-raht, I can imagine someone roleplaying a Cathay-raht despite lack of appropriate body model.
Being big and strong doesn't necessarily make you a better warrior, though...


What I'd want to see is the return of attributes. It's not true that they're still here, only hidden. Luck, Personality, Speed, Willpower - where are they? It's a shame, they were an excellent tool of creating racial variety. Their base value was dependant on both race and gender, which means every character started out on a slightly different note (sometimes more than slightly). However, over the course of game we could bring atrributes of our own choice to the maximum level. And, on contrary to what some people say, those attributes actually affected gameplay.

Actually, bosmer -were- the best archers out of the lot.......at least in the days of Daggerfall. One of the many cases where all those icky stats =meant= something. But the more they homogenize, the less differentiation there is. But hey, at least Bubba can pick up a controller and kill things without any need for consideration........

Actually, I think it's a plus that I can choose a race because I like the look or for a certain role playing style, and I don't have to be locked into a certain "class" because of the starting stats.