Scaling is fine if used in moderation, as long as they have level caps for the monsters. At higher levels you have better equipment and magic as well, so even if the monsters scale slightly they will not stay on par with you.

Of course when you reach level 40 you don't want to be killing every single npc bandit or monster you meet with one hit as that would make the game extremely dull. So they have to balance that as well and keep the play interesting somehow.

Generally I prefer fixed levels.
It's not without difficulties in open world games, but the Gothic series did it reasonably well.

However, I can live with the scaling as it is done in Skyrim, although it could be improved a bit.
Personally I would fix more regions to a certain level range but make sure that at high levels you don't encounter entire dungeons filled with the highest-tier enemies (although again, they did a relatively good job it already, only at higher levels it begins to degrade).
Areas further removed (in distance or altitude) from settlements should have higher difficulty in general.

Thats kina my point... but their level is kind of irrelevant... I dont think theres any baddies with 30 to 50 perks either... up'ing the difficulty to master doesent realy cut it for long... they should really do somthing about that... the whole " balancing argument " aside I dever minded raising the difficulty in previous Bethesda games to keep it challenging, but they kinda dropped the ball with the difficulty settings on this one...

To be honest the games to easy from the start... the Normal setting dosent provide any challenge.... whats the last Elderscrolls that you could whoop an entire group of baddies right outta the gate?

Videogames these days... they keep makin em eaiser and easier so they dont alienate anybody ( played RAGE on Nightmare difficulty... what a joke... I thought ohhh Nightmare... I better save that for my second playthru... this an ID game afterall... Pffft )

In Morrowind and Oblivion the game was arduas when you first started... the fact that you could ever get to the point in the game and competantly clear out a cave with out constantly retreating and healing was an acomplishment...

In Skyrim your whoppin a whole gang of bandits right off the bat....

Adept = Easy

Expert = Normal

Master = Mildly Difficult... then easy

As compared to previous titles.

with a game like this i think its necessary. i tried playing OOO and hated having to figure out where i can and can't go through dying all the time. cause thats not realistic either, you can't just come back to life and be like oh i wont go there. and since there are no set zones or anything it becomes way harder. I like the way the creatures are leveled anyway. Bandits for example don't get daedric armor anymore so the stupidness of it is gone. But I definitely think there should be monsters that just don't appear period until you're a certain level. It keeps it fresh you know. Realism can only go so far imo since its 1, a video game and 2, a fantasy world video game. Neither are inherently realistic to begin with and compromises must be made. With the freedom to go wherever you wan't i really think it helps. Altghough I think a mix is also good. Something like very high level unique monsters that you encounter in the wild that you have to be strong enough to kill. I just hate running around being like ok these guys arrows 1 hit ko me and these take three ill go play here

The problem with leveling in my opinion however is that once you manage to beat the MQ or a few dragons there really shouldn't be that many people that can do the same... It makes no sense that I can kill an Elder Dragon at level 40 and still face bandits that can nearly kill me. One of those dragons should be able to destroy an entire town, and how is it possible that people similiar to those I beat early on get so much more powerful so quickly, why the hell didn't they do that before I arrived?

I don't get the sense of progress that I would get if it the enemies were at set levels, clearing a cave of Necromancers is not that much more difficult at level 12 then at level 40. It just doesn't make sense. I'd rather have entire regions where I shouldn't go early on then being able to go everywhere.

Okay, I don't understand the whole.... monsters leveling up is not realistic.... argument.

Leveling up is not realistic for ANYONE. If you don't want monsters to scale to your level you have only two other choices.

1) make the game Super linear so that monsters are going to be challenging at the correct point in your 'corridor' like pathway.

2) Remove levelling up for the player as well. If the player never improves in power, then the monsters can easily be set at the correct challenge.

There really is no other options. In an open game world where the wandering of the player is unknown. Monsters will HAVE to be able to be changed dynamically.

I think there should be a mixture of enemies leveling up with you, and different levels of enemies in the nine different areas.

Now, I know the later part means following the MMO pattern which leads you from a starting area to the max level area, but if you combine both systems, you could arrive at a pattern that satisfies everyone's wishes on game play.

For example, after you finish Riverwood, you're free to go wherever. Depending on your level, you may be able to go to area A where enemies are level with (or slightly higher) than you. But if you go to area B, the enemies will be much higher levels than you. That would satisfy those of us who prefer a harder game - but not necessarily requires an increase in game settings to achieve that.

Also, if you could make that random - except for Riverwood (start area) and Whiterun (start of main quest - dragons - area), so that you don't know on your second or subsequent play-through where the high levels are.

Overall, I'm very satisfied with the way it currently works, but there's always room for improvement.

They did that in FO:New Vegas, but it felt like you were being funnelled in a fixed direction.
I think some tough zones would be good as long they weren't major obstructions blocking off whole areas of the open world.

It should be the other way round.

You should be the one to scale to the level of the monsters (by leveling up) - not the monsters catching you up.

Ugh no,that was one of the major flaws in Oblivion IMO

Not all enemies in Diablo series scaled with you, only elite and boss monsters did, and even them had a limit. Going through dificulty levels only got you higher thresholds, but never did simple enemies scale level by level with you.

No. A game should not automatically scale monsters to my abilities. The monsters I find within an area should always be the same. I wish for areas that I cannot go to, because I will not survive there. Nor should I be able to become immune to low level monsters.

And, daggers that will initially do a damage of 8 and later can be used to do "OVER 9000!!!" damage are also questionable.

I would rather see weapons doing a damage of 8.0, 8.1, 8.2, ... and so on, than to see them increase as high as they do now. Being able to tank a wolf with only light armor and one's healing rate should not be possible either.

How many caves/dungeons are in the game?For those opposed to scaling what percentage are low/mid/hard?What is the placement knowing not everyone does the same thing?Do you put all the tough ones on the outer edge of the map?Do you go the invisible wall route and guide the player to appropriate locations and scale that way?Do you make each dungeon multi level and as you go deeper it gets more difficult?

I hear a lot of no but not many suggestions that improve the system that is in place now.

The scaling system is fine most of the time, it's the means to approach the enemies that needs balancing.

No. When you know it needs balancing, and solve it with auto-scaling, then you have missed to fix the problem at its root.

Just stop over powering the player with every little skill increase and you do not have a need to scale the monsters with it. My armor rating started at like 100 and is now 1087, and my damage was maybe 10-14 at start and I can now do up to 3000. The skill system increases the numbers far too high. At first you struggle to fight a single wolf, and then you can slaughter 1000 of them. Where is the immersion in there?

The suggestion is actually rather simple, go back to Morrowind where most things had a fixed level with minor scaling for certain places. Like you had the option to either meet a Winged Twilight or a Dremora Lord, sure there is a difference but it's relatively minor. With wide open terrain and alternatives for walking (like carriage transport) the locations don't have to be cut of at all, it will just be harder to do random quests for people there because you will likely die.

Morrowind did low to mid level fine but it fell apart at higher levels.Once you hit level 20(15 if you went straight for some of the better loot) nothing could touch you.

Agreed.

I hated Oblivion`s way. Fallout 3 learned from this and it isn`t too bad in Skyrim.

You are getting too strict in your definition of what is ok and what is not ok. Just mix it up. Even randomize it is possible (at the beginning of map generation). Or let the powerful enemies move around and create danger zones. Let the player think their way through the situation. That provides gameplay. Just like if you were to travel into the jungle. Do you know where the lions are? Where are the rabbits? You explore and find out. Once you find certain areas full of lions, you start avoiding that area until you have enough equipment or skill to deal with them. If you find rabbits, you know... hey that is safe territory, I can cook some rabbits or skin their skins for stuff. Then you can put powerful monsters here or there, and they may have around them an army of men as their servants, and every month they go in a certain direction and claim that area as their own. In dungeon, similarly put one tough cookie in some of them and it is their home. So lets say a dragon stays in one, and you happen to go in naively, and get killed in one breath of fire. You learn to avoid that place for years until you get fire resistance, or enough skill or spells to deal with the dragon, then you go in prepared next time. That provides tension and allows people to use their gameplay planning to the max. Also, good loot should not be random placements, unless it is always near a randomized high level enemy or friend. No one really throws aways precious things in real life, so it should be rare that you see good stuff lying around in the open. You can make a treasure map and hide the loot, that would be ok. But to have very precious loot lying around in a easily accessed dungeon with no one protecting it is not realistic.

A problem people are saying is... what if you get so powerful and those around you are easily defeated? that is ok too. But if you don't just put a whole area as one certain level of enemies, this does not become a problem. Sprinkle powerful monster here and there. You learn to avoid certain monsters. Allow the player to run away or hide from them. Even if you get very powerful, allow common low enemies to gang up on you. so even if you are high level, provoking one will rally the whole group of monsters to attack you at once. It is even nice to once and a while be able to attract and be feared by other npc as you walk through an area. So for example, if you are weak hunters look for you, if they are weak, victims run away. That is natural. A orc may size you up and fear you if they sense your equipment and level, but some more experienced may challenge you. etc etc.

I understand the philosophy behind your view point I am asking for how you would implement it in a way that improves the current sytem.
And the first part about randomizing on map creation is very close to what they do now.

The world should be divided into areas. You should of course be able to go wherever you like, but enemies and creatures of different level, should be in different areas of the map, as many games used to have. That makes it more exciting to go to those areas.

When it comes to combat in games simple rules make for boring experience (leveling enemies only, set leveled enemies only). Throw in all types into the same game to keep things fluid as the player becomes not only more powerful, but more familiar with the game. In the end the game should be fun, not uber realistic.

• Enemies scaling to a certain degree- not just for keeping the difficulty up but also for introducing variants to keep gameplay interesing.
  
• Enemies with set levels for the sake of low level players can easily die- adds tension in the begining for low level players and satisfaction once you level up and go back to clear them out
  
• New enemies appearing throughout the game as you level. Again, to keep mixing up gameplay and keeping the game fresh for the player.

Here's the problem with tiered zones. You end up having more than enough content generally in the low-mid tiers, and very little in the upper tiers. You will spend the majority of the game (or should) in the upper tier (or end game). This means you end up with a lot of worthless content you have out leveled. You can however have both. Enemies that have natural levels and scale. Content should never be trivialized, however on the flip side content should be progressive. Trivialized content has no point to being in the game. In your example further down the page with regards to bandits and Elder Dragons, it would make no sense at level 40 to EVER encounter a Bandit. It is stupid and boring to be able to run through content without a challenge AND without any sort of benefit. The problem with Skyrim is that enemies DO become trivial and STOP scaling. They need to go with a system that allows the player to set a min/max level offset for enemies to scale. For example, players seeking a greater challenge might set enemies to always be 10-20 levels higher to compensate for how powerful they are. I like progression and feeling like I am gaining power, but when enemies are completely trivial and I get no reward out of it since gear does not matter, the game becomes pointless to continue.

I have to say I hate that. You always have some fool who built their city, not where the level 2 orcies are in the easy forest with babbling brooks country, but in the level 65 giant scorpion desert. Why would you? Makes game sense, not game world sense

I much preffered leveled enemies - without them there's no anticpation of fear or feeling of panic, or feeling of empowerment either. You can't beat playing an RPG where somone whoops your ass one minute, then 10 levels later you return for revenge he he he.

The problem with Skyrim is that this obviously restricts the freedom of the game - but only in a realistic way. So long as the game is designed sensibly with areas being reknowned throughout it's world as dangerous, and monsters are likewise - "Don't go to X Marsh, the X monsters there are feirce!" etc. - then the only thing it does is add to the feeling of reality.