Someone calculated it, and one handed skill level 30 and one 20% damage perk is equal in strength to Skill level 100 and no perks.

That's insane.

All Magic skills also have 5 perks that double the overall skill effect by reducing costs across the board by 50%. It's no different than the weapon skills, the only difference is that it goes by spell level, and the perks aren't arranged as a single multi pointer.

Sorry... but this is flat-out wrong. Having a skill level 30 and one perk in Armsman will give you the equivalent of a 36 skill. Don't take my word for it... multiply it out yourself. Math is fun!

-Loth

I don't have a problem with it, Perks should matter in regards to your skill. If we did it the other way it would end up like the minor skills in Oblivion where you could get them all up to 100 without even leveling up.

How much damage does each Skill level add?

I cant agree more. Skill allows you to level up and unlocks the later and better items showing up in the game, but if I am a skill of 100 in one handed I should be the best damn swordsman there can be. I think of it like school grades. If I am a skill 100 I should be at 100% without ANY perks and do maximum damage and criticals. But someone who is a 60 skill with a few perks would destroy me simply because of his added power. And he has a D- grade in one handed.

From the UESP wiki:

displayed damage = (base damage + smithing increase) * (1 + 0.5 * skill/100) * (1 + perk effects) * (1 + item effects)
Perk Effects = .2 * Barbarian/Armsman/Overdraw rank level

So from a quick anolysis, we see that skill level is tantamount to getting high damage numbers, whereas smithing improvements only add flat numbers to base damage. Anything that multiplies against base damage instead of adding will have a greater effect at high levels. In fact, I have done the research myself: smithing improvements are very low flat numbers that only add 2 or 1 to your weapon's base damage, and are the same numbers for ANY weapon whatsoever, regardless of weapon type or material. An iron dagger gets the same bonus from being smithed to legendary as a Daedric Warhammer. The exact number for an unimproved weapon being improved to the first level of Legendary is a base of exactly 10 added to the weapon.

You only see crazy damage numbers when you start to take skill level into account, as that is where the multiplying comes from. If you are awesome enough to have daedric equipment, then chances are you have a high skill, so one smithing improvement level will yield a high bonus. If your skill is zero, then you get +1 or +2... that's it.

-Loth

I think you people are too concerned with the skill level as a number, the skill/perk mix is just a different system for improving your abilities, that's it. What's wrong with it? Yes, you can be more powerful at 50 than at 100 if you spend your perk points in the right spots. So what?

But the OP is stating that skill levels are useless because of the perks, and well, we are just telling him he's wrong.

Actually, you can't.

A player with 50 skill can get 3 perks in Armsman. With a 100 base damage sword (we'll use 100 for ease of calculation)... that amounts to 200 damage. That same sword in the hands of a char with 100 skill and no perks does 200 damage. Same numbers.

-Loth

Um, too much hyperbole on my part.

The problem is that damage increase is no longer gradual. Instead we have a system where one minute you go from doing 16 damage to the next where you're doing 20 because you upgraded one of your damage perks.

Ha, I know... I agree with your point 100% -- the perks/skill mixture is just how the system works.
-Loth

Edit: @The Mech -- going from doing 16 damage to 20? How is this so bad? Putting a perk point into weapon skill shouldn't cause a gradual shift -- it's the RP equivalent of an "A ha!" moment when your char realizes that he should be swinging his sword at a slightly more vulnerable area, or using a more favorable swing mechanic to impart more damage. A whole level's worth of knowledge distilled into a revelation born of experience and practice.

While the system may be working as intended, that doesn't mean there is a more efficient or better system that could be used just as easily.

I have raised smithing alchemy and enchanting to 100 and you see an clear improvement as you go up.
However the smithing material perk bonus gives you +100 in improving material, that is just as much as the 1 to 100 skill improvement.
Alchemy and enchanting is worse, 5*20% improvement and a +25% in buff or damage, gives you 125%,
If you do not take any perks you are better off buying potions and enchants.

However you don't need to take all the perks, I actualy ignores many of the +20% perks in sneak as I sneak well enough for archery as it is, if I wanted to get close enough for dagger work I would probably need more.
I ignore the poisons in alchemy as I do enough damage and think poisons are to weak to bother with.

Nobel Deforestation?
Blow Mel Aburation?

Huh, actually I welcome a little skill boost every one and then. Just a matter of taste I suppose.

This is getting closer.

I couldn't have said it better.

global illumination???

Spell Creation?

This is actually a good thing. Given that you have a limited number of perks, it avoids the Master of All that would otherwise happen by virtue of playing. Since you need perks to make skills as useful as they can be, and you don't get enough perks to fill all the skills, it encourages you to specialize if you want to get really good at something, or risk being merely adequate in a lot of things.

Being that a defining feature of TES games, ever since Daggerfall, is that you get better at what you do, having skill prerequisites for those perks keeps that alive. It's not simply XP -> Level Up -> Select Something To Improve (whether you've been using it or not). You have to use that skill to unlock the perk that can make the skill more useful.

You can still improve weapons and armor better with a higher skill, even if you don't take perks. You may not be able to craft them, but you can improve what you find (until you start getting enchanted stuff, anyway).

Where Smithing really fails is that there's so little to do with it. You create and/or upgrade your gear once, and that's it. Unless you grind the skill by creating and improving useless junk, there's no way to increase the skill more. If Bethesda had left in the armor/weapon degradation they had planned (that is, having your improvements wear off over time to bring it back to base stats; they said it was going to work that way before release, and I can't understand at all why they ditched it), it would have given you a reason to go back and improve your gear again for more skill points, without having to grind and without making it mandatory.

These are still somewhat useful (alchemy less so at high levels, but not worthless at lower levels). A lot of the good enchantments you find are on otherwise low-quality junk, like hide bracers or leather boots. If you're wearing glass or dragonscale, then the enchantment skill lets you get some of those bonuses on your better gear, even if it may not be as good.


Ultimately, I think the idea with making perks so powerful is that it encourages specialization, without resorting to the old XP-based leveling system. For instance, you can't be a great mage and thief without sacrifice to some magic or stealth abilities (eg, sacrificing conjuration and alteration for sneak and alchemy). If the perks are too weak compared to the skill, then it's not really specialization more than simply minor, almost useless buffs to an already powerful skill.

What are you saying?! That you can't be a JoaT god?! That perks actually mean something?!? I would never have guessed, someone should tell Odd Hermit that perks mean something, I think he missed the memo.

Then one character could do everything leaving little reason to play through the game again. Perk point investment should be a DRAMATIC difference, the problem is it isn't enough. All it governs currently is effectiveness. There are almost no Combat skills or abilities added. Almost no new spells added. The only thing perks really do is raise effectiveness. That is a problem. I would agree with your idea about skills, but then we would need to go back to Primary, Major, Minor skills - not eliminate the ability to create custom classes in favor of one godly class that does everything.