I'd rather be a great video game complainer personally. I'd put more effort into the game if there was less in it worth complaining about though. I also don't have fun being godlike on a maxed out character.

I absolutely agree with this. The idea of a blank slate is great, but there needs to be more defintion. As it is currently, I really don't care about my character and I feel like I am rushing to hurry up and define my character so I get a sense of them, and unfortunately by that time the Perk investment and scaling goes down the drain. Birthsign and Deity choice would also be welcomed additions at the start. I think I would have added a General Perk tree also that does not share Perk points with Skills that you could put a point into every level. In this tree, you would have 4 paths. 1.) Race - Unique progression path for each race 2.) Health - Endurance line. Affects mitigation, Health, Health Regen etc. 3.) Stamina - Agility line. Affects Stamina, Stamina Regen, Acrobatics & Altheletics placed here. 4.) Magicka - Intelligence line. Affects Magicka, Magicka regen, damage scaling (Silent Casting placed here). I like not being penalized by Race selection, but I think the game could use something that starts to define races by the traits you can acquire ala Perks.

Well they have something for everyone.

You don't have to choose those perks, they were made for those who want to be a thief, for example.

Actually, they aren't. Birthsigns were completely removed. Guardian Stones are the equivalent of Oblivion's Doomstones - which were also constellation based, also could be switched at will, also could only be one activated at a time, and had no effect on your character's birthsign.

That sounds awesome. Seems like it would be really fun to specialize your race further. I'd like stats back for the other 3 though personally.

This This This

I don't think the perk system worked out as well as the designers, (Howard?) intended. From the reading I've done, I gather they wanted more freedom and less baggage. Some of that baggage was foundation, though, which the game needed.

I'll just keep repeating; character development is almost everything in a rpg, unless it's a maze and once done you're through.

Yup. As said before, the perk system is actually more restrictive than the major/minor skills system that was used before because when it boiled down to things, Major/Minor allowed for a complete maximization of character if that is what you wanted. The perk system does not allow that.

Personally, I feel this is actually a step in the right direction that was poorly executed. You can't have a character that is master of everything anymore so switching to a new class mid-game is no longer viable past a certain level. I just wish the perk system was less arbitrary, is all.

Right now, EVERYTHING in your skills revolves around nabbing those perks. All I'm saying is why not put the deal X% more damage / cast X spells for half magicka / can perform skill X% more successfully and tie those to skill level instead of forcing the player to spend his already scarce perk points on them? Now skill level means something again.

Of course, there are a number of perk trees I feel were just terribly made period that will require redoing (Smithing and Lockpicking, for example). But that's a story for another time.

Because you need more perks and a f*cking skill level of 70 to get the benefit? Up until then you are basically useless as a sneaking character unless you take the Steed sign, so Light Armor still is the armor of choice for any thief and assassin.

@OP

Yes, some perks are f*cking useless and many others should really have been simple skill boni (every +x % perk), but I don't mind the new system in general. In regard to perks it is the logical follow up to the Oblivion system, which also had perks tied to skills.

The Fallout system belongs in Fallout and not in TES and they didn't copy it.

Having a perk that removes an inherent property of heavy armor is a strange decision, the prerequisites for the perk are irrelevant towards that discussion.

Not really, I was madly annoyed seeing how heavy armors were damn slow, lorewise:one would think that a trained person would be able to move freely while wearing them; gameplay wise: it's damn annoying when you run/walk like if you were in the Moon.

You're mistaking Subjective Oppinion for Objective Truth. Those things don't make the perk filler at all, they're actually very useful, having armor being twice as good as it once was isn't filler, having spells cast half cost is not filler. They are to you but many find them useful. I really like the way the perks work, they allow me to make the character I want. I'll give that the lockpick tree is a bit of a dud but most other trees are quite good.

All "choices" are meaningless because you can either reload to an earlier save file or press the reset button. Most of the time the illusion of choice is just a formality.

I like the system as it is now. I would hate if Skyrim removed perks and made skill level determine your play-style in a given area.

As it is now, two different people can have 100 in Archery and 100 in 1H, but still have completely different options. One guy might have invested in the 'slow time' perks in Archery, or maybe the other guy didn't need all of the damage increasing perks so he does slightly less damage but saved a perk for another tree. Maybe player #2 opted for reduced stamina use on power attacks, while player #1 uses the 'bleed' perk for axes.

Perk selection allows for VASTLY different styles of play. Automatically unlocking perks due to skill level would mean everyone has the same perks, and everyone plays the same thief, mage, warrior or whatever.

Make a mod or live life, now some of you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

And just what the hell is a "meaningful choice" in this context? You mean like in Bioware games, where you are given a "choice" but it is promptly overwritten by canon? Let's take a look at one of their most popular games from the last decade, KOTOR: "Oh what's that? Your Darth Revan was female? LOL, too bad, canon says no."

The Perk trees are not perfect..tis true. But then again they are hardly bad. Some are just more "efficient" and helpful and some are inefficient because of the skill they represent. As you said, the lock-picking is a tree that seems to cost many perk points to get very little, but there you go that is how it works...think of it like buying an Apple computer.


I think there is one concept that we might consider, and that is that some trees are longer and put the good stuff further away so that you have to make a choice of "investing" in that skill tree. The only other option would have been to only award points every other level of every five levels and had very efficient trees that you use fewer points. So really the trees are they way they are because the point system eventually provides too many points because the leveling system does allows players to reach higher levels.

To change the perk trees you need to change the way points are awarded and the leveling system...it is all connected folks...it is all connected.

I actually like the perk tree or whatever it is what I don't like is the level cap. I enjoyed both leveling up and using the various perks throughout the game what I hate, and this is paramount, I HATE that after forty hours of play I discover that I can no longer add perks from the tree so that the one point i added to enchanting and the one point i added to two handed weapons and the one point i added to alchemy and so on, that i spent early on just kinda feeling those particular skills out were a basic waist and took from the overall effectiveness. If your going to have a level cap you should have in big shiny letters for all the players to see right up front saying HEY DON'T SPEND PERK POINTS IN THINGS UNLESS YOU KNOW THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT BECAUSE WE'VE DECIDED FOR YOU THAT YOU DON'T WANT A DIVERSE CHARACTER WITH LOTS OF DIFFERENT SKILLS. If I had known that I was ruining my character to the point of having to set back the difficulty to complete quests, A SERIOUS SIN FOR A GUY LIKE ME, I would have built a second character to try stuff out with or even just played though once with way better strategy in mind.

This can easily be solved. . . So maybe give us a fetch quest with mild time consuming what-nots to earn a potion or item that allows the resetting of perks. Or the adding of new perks! I absolutely do not believe in cheats, but as I feel kinda cheated (and frankly I don't want to just start over again all the way from the beginning) I actually tried to locate cheats to allow me to reset some perk points to better suit a character of my design however this too was a bust as I am a 360 player and those cheats either don't exist or require a modded xbox something I am against both as a player and a prospective game designer. Plus I don't want to get kicked off xbox live.

So please BETHESDA HEAR MY CRY find it in your heart to throw this gamer a bone and give unto me the potion of . . . . . . (fill in name here) so that I might undo the pain of thy level cap and deliver me from mine own curiosity in wanting to feel out a couple of points of pickpocketing and alteration and illusion and restoration and destruction. . . . In your name I pray. . . amen

Just another thought...if you change perks you change the points doling system that changes the leveling system.

Why not just start from square one? Bethesda should blow up the universe; i.e. let some dedric lord collapse the universe...but whoops he blots himself and EVRYTHING else out of existence. **Bingo** - now you have a new universe, all past lore is blotted out...but it is all canon since a Daedric lord did it..

Then, Bethesda would free to change the cosmic fabric that makes the world(s), the gods (if any), the world(s) players quest upon, the people's & cultures, and the history.

Now 'THAT' would solve this whole perks issue for sure…

That's Alduin's job.

CRAZY TALK I TELL YOU CRAZY!!!!!!!

The perk's inherent power is a bit strange (I understand the concept they're going for, but a lower % might be better), but it is consistant with the Heavy Armor perks in Oblivion.

That said.... the fact that it takes until skill 70 to get the effect is NOT irrelevant. Using heavy armor, there's a long period of play where you ARE encumbered by it's weight/etc. During that period, the armor does not behave like light/no armor. Unless you do something stupid/grindy like standing there letting a rat hit you over and over while constantly healing, to power level the skill, you still have to play through the game for a long time WITHOUT it.

(Similar to the reduced casting cost perks - just because you can eventually get 100 Enchanting and make yourself some -100% gear, doesn't invalidate those perks. You are not handed "0 casting cost" at the start of the game - it's a long path to get there. During that time, the -50% cost perks are useful.)

The journey is just as important (if not more so) as the destination. Gaining some amazing ability at level 40+, doesn't retroactively give you that ability for level 1-39. You still had to do without that ability for that period of gameplay.

I hate threads that harshly criticize gameplay elements like the poster is some kind of authority on the subject. Wouldn't it be preferable to title it 'Discussion on Quality of Perks and Skill Trees'?

Anyway, the point of the 'filler' perks is obvious. If skill level alone determined the skill's efficacy, then you'd have the same problem as in Oblivion, with God characters that were good at everything. Perk points are a form of specialization and, because they are limited, ensure your character is balanced.

This way, if you want to be strong at archery, you must perk Overdraw. If you then also want to be strong at one-handed, you must perk Armsman. If all you had to do was level the respective skills to 100, then what would stop you from becoming good at everything?

Think of skill level as TIME spent exercizing that skill, and perks as HOW WELL you took advantage of that time due to talent. Afterall, I could practice guitar 24 hours a day for 10 years and never be as good as John McLaughlin. I put in the time (100 at guitar), but wasn't good enough to perk it. On the other hand, some other guy could practice for just a few hours every day for a year (50 guitar level), but through sheer talent, become a far better musician than me with my 100 skill.

Hope this makes sense. Skyrim perks are fine.

No, no I am not. My response to another post of the same nature applies to this one as well -
It should be a given that most of what we say is going to be subjective opinion unless stated otherwise, we should not be expected to state that before everything we say - it'd get tiresome pretty fast.

While that is true that you don't have to make a disclaimer for every time, but you always have to set the tone. You take the Tone that you're some RPG Guru and you're opinion is more Valid than the others. You take a confrontational tone that makes it very clear that you do not want to be constructive but just want to damn the game and not discuss how to make it better. You chose the tone for an argument and that's what you get. If you just want an argument to fight for victory, you have it.