Personally, I really avoid Steamworks because of my recent experience with it on another game. I don't have FNV simply because of Steam.
yes, I have firewalled Steam for the time being & do shutdown the comp when I go to bed.

what I wouldn't give for a legit offline installation option, just remember Steamworks is still managing your rights just like any other DRM it just has a carrot for you to enjoy, & not everyone can use the carrot.


True up to a point, Steam may only stop the piracy initially but it quickly doesn't matter, just like any other DRM that the legit user may not need to jump through hoops & huge downloads to get to use what they paid for even if they got a disc version

Steam was very unstable on my computer before I locked it down.

maybe, but only because of the store but it is still a form of DRM & honesty has nothing to do with it, it causes problems for some.



it took me about 5 hours just to install/update Steam when I got it.
While it's good that you can enjoy Steam on such a connection, not everyone has that luxury.

Some day in the not too distant future, Valve will either go under, be sold, or sell the Steam service, and it will cease to exist. It's happened to other high-profile providers of digital content, e.g. the DVD-based DIVX, and it will inevitably happen to Steam. For content exclusive to Steam, it will be the gaming equivalent of the burning of the Library of Alexandria. That's not a problem exclusive to Steam, obviously, but it warrants consideration by artists and consumers alike.

Edit: Historical anecdote. Liquid Audio was a popular DRM-restricted audio format around the turn of the century. As a company, they played a significant role in the implementation of certain provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Microsoft purchased Liquid's DRM assets, and the company went under shortly thereafter. As far as I know, Liquid Audio content can no longer be decrypted. At the time, very little music was distributed solely through online channels, and only "exclusive" content was lost; however, Liquid Audio's demise still serves as a cautionary tale for the current generation of media consumers.

Well luckily I live in Canada. Where if Steam folds, people can crack the piss out of any title which has copy protection as the product is theirs. There's similar laws all over countries in the EU as well. But at the end of the day steam only adds one thing. The ability for publishes to ensure that they can keep digital releases at big-box store prices indefinitely. Sometimes more. I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Where I live, if I bought steam though digital download it would have looked like this:
$39.99+7(for bandwidth) because we're capped, plus taxes on both items
What I paid:
$37.99 at Futureshop, while I was in a local city buying other junk.

Steam doesn't stop piracy. If fact it only encourages it since over the years, Steam has proven to be nothing more then an ennobled FTP server with bad protection and therefore is a failed concept. Games released through the Steam network are being detached from the network in no-time and 'released' over the internet. Something that Ritual Entertainment discovered the hard way with their 'top title' Sin Episodes: Emergence with the result that they are now defunct.

From time to time, other developers are also experiencing the FTP issue, since many people who have legitimately bought their game can receive on launch day (and/or the early days after release) a “Game is unavailable” message, if they don't recieve a “The server is too busy to handle your request” message, therefore unable to play their legitimately bought game. People who have 'acquired' the game through different means are then in possession of a version which they can play at all times, sometimes even before the games are officially released!

Compared to (for example) Direct2Drive, the amount of hits that I get when I activly search for a so-called "steam crack" or no-steam version, will far outnumber the amount of hits I will get if I search for a D2D crack/version and the first crack that remotely enables me access their network and functionalities, similar of that of those Steam cracks, I still have to find. That says a lot . . .

It's legal to bypass obsolete copy protection measures in the US, too, as long as you're entitled to use the protected software. Steam and other digital distribution schemes cause chilling effects with respect to perpetual licensing or ownership and transfer of ownership. The first-sale doctrine is slowly eroding in the US. Unless more artists find ways to chuck the current media publishing paradigm, we'll see a time very shortly when all works are owned by publishers (it's mostly like that already), with only very limited licenses being granted to both consumers and the artists who created the works. The situation will come to a head in 2012, when the US Congress will likely be forced by publishers to either extend copyright grants or revoke artists' rights. Keep an eye on Vernor v. Autodesk, Inc. as well. Substantial changes to copyright law in the US will likely have a serious impact on members of the Berne Union and signatories to ACTA, assuming it's ratified.

Well since you asked, I have listed my reasons at great length in other posts and in other threads; but I would also like an answer to my question and you seem to be a prime example of the type of person best suited to answer it. So I would exchange my answer for yours’, and in the spirit of goodwill I will go first. The following are a list of features added to Steam over the years:

Steam Deals – These seem to range between “Wow! 75% off of a game I don’t want!” and “Wow! $5 is a great price for that game I already have!” So no real benefits for me.

The Steam Community – I have other means of talking to my friends, when I’m playing a game (especially a single player game) I want to be left alone. I also don’t care how many hours anyone spent playing any game, not even my own hours. Honestly the thought that someone I don’t know even wants to see my gaming habits is kinda creepy.

Achievements – Really!!?? Who came up with this? A completely arbitrary set of challenges to be completed in game but offer no in game benefits. I typically play a solo unarmed/melee character, so I would have to completely change my playstyle to get some of those achievements. If there was an actual reward (Like a free DLC for getting them all :hubbahubba: ) then I would take the time to try it out, but for something as inane as bragging rights… :shakehead:

Play on any PC/Cloud/Play on Mac – I custom built my rig for playing the games I wanted to play, why would I go to some other computer to play them? It would be pointless to try to play on my wife’s netbook, and installing games at work is frowned upon. If I’m only playing on the one machine I’m not too worried about my game saves. I sometimes like to make separate save folders for different character, I don’t need my saves backed up anywhere. I don’t want to go into long winded discussion that is irrelevant to this thread so I will just say this: You will see Bill Gates using a Mac before you ever see me using one.

Never need a Disk again – But I like my disks, they’re so shinny! :shocking:
I take good care of my stuff, I don’t have a history of damaging or losing my disks but I do understand the benefits that this offers to other people. This is why those of us who prefer disks should be able to use them by themselves, without the need for Steam. Many of the games I play have the protection measure of requiring the disk to play, some of them (like Fallout 3 or Starcraft) have easy workarounds, but even for those that don’t it has never been an issue for me to just put the disk in the tray and leave it there until I want to play something else.

Now I do realize that I can disable or ignore these features, but what is the point of having Steam when I have to disable every option that it has? For that matter why does Steam need to be installed on my machine at all? The Fallout Nexus offers Digital Distribution and Community Features and keeps Profile History and could handle even more Goodies without the need to download and install a special program, what is so special about Steam that my games absolutely cannot function unless it is installed, updated and running? I truly believe that Digital Distribution will be the main venue for software sales in the near future, however the Steam model is too draconian to be a part of that future.

Now my question: Those who love Steam, and it's clear you fall into this catagory, have what they want. Why the need to belittle those of us who have different preferences and/or priorities?

I don't believe that the Anti-Steam crowd is here to start a fight, we just want our opinions heard, and perhaps acknowledged, by the only entity capable of leagally decoupling Fallout: New Vegas from Steam. (this is their board isn't it)

I'm glad I didn't download the evil twin Steam from an alternate universe (with a goatee, no doubt!) that is always conspiring against me. I got the good Steam that generally cooperates, even if it's a little dim witted and has to be shown how to install something off the DVD instead of downloading the whole thing.

Still waiting for that glory patch.

Or for steam to get dropped.

I agree with you 200%. Beth using steam to play this game is the one main reason i havent purchesed NV and i have and use steam for one multiplayer game shooter, I will not use it for single player games period. What ever back door sleazy deal they made with Valve steam, valve came out the clear winner in that agreement. I know a lot of people think steam is great and thats fine but a gaming company like beth should not force it on you. If i want to DL a game like nv and spend half the night DL it with dsl fine my choice. If i spend 30 mins drinving to a game store come home that drive to get the game should be my biggest hassle. There is 0 reason to put steam on a hard copy single player game.

SteveDog summed up my thoughts in a really good post above.

This part (Now I do realize that I can disable or ignore these features, but what is the point of having Steam when I have to disable every option that it has? For that matter why does Steam need to be installed on my machine at all? )

Still waiting for that glory patch.

Or for steam to get dropped.

I don't care if Steam managing my rights because Steam doesn't blow and act all draconian like DRM does. Steam doesn't tell me I can't install a game to however many computers I want to, it doesn't give me grief when I want to uninstall something, all of the things that are wrong with DRM are pretty much absent from Steam. As for piracy, it may not matter but it still is infinitely better than dealing with DRM which is pretty much the only other option companies will go with since they don't understand that you'll never stop piracy.

If Steam is unstable for you, the problem isn't with Steam, it's with your computer. What kind of instability do you have with "Steam?"

As for the problems some people have, they are in a minority so small that it's not funny, this thread is the first time I have ever seen people complain about Steam like this outside of when it first came out and wasn't nearly as good as it is now. This thread pales in comparison to the mobs of people with pitchforks that arise when some terrible DRM like that of Spore's or Assassin's Creed II come along.



Yeah, I don't see that happening any time remotely soon. That's like saying Blizzard will go under, the odds of it happening are so extremely unlikely due to them being one of the top developers in the world, and Valve is one of those too. That doesn't even begin to address the fact that Steam absolutely dominates retail stores and other digital distribution methods and is making money like crazy. Steam isn't going to go away because a couple people throw a hissy fit because it auto updates their games with patches that aren't the best in the world and aren't their fault.



And Steam has sales all the time and goes through price drops, more so than they ever do at retail places. When's the last time you saw anywhere from 25% - 75% off sales on stuff at a retail store? As for the bandwidth, that's not Steam's fault or problem, thats because you have ghetto internet. Same for the taxes, most places in the states don't pay taxes on stuff purchased through Steam.



Calling Steam a failed concept is just plain laughable. And what do you expect as for the unavailable stuff? You don't think that there's going to be hiccups when there's tens of thousands or more people all trying to get a game at the same time?




Steam Deals - I find it hard to believe that there has never been anything on sale, especially during their holiday sales, that you have never wanted. The volume of stuff that they sell during those sales means there's plenty of people out there willing to buy stuff from them.

Steam Community - Then don't use it? There's nothing stopping you from not using it or adding friends to it and such. And if you have other means and the friends on there use Steam as well, why not just kill two birds with one stone unless you are talking about stuff like voice chat?

Achievements - Really? REALLY? You are going to hold something like that against Steam and games on Steam just because you don't like the concept, despite the fact that it doesn't harm, hinder, etc you in any way shape or form? If you don't care about them then don't bother doing them.

Play on any PC/Cloud/Play on Mac – Then its not for you then. The idea is to allow people who DO use other computers to access their stuff whenever and wherever they are.

Never need a Disk again – Like some of the other stuff, I think you'd find yourself in a minority in the case. Even though I take relatively good care of my discs, other than leaving them out for long periods of time, I'm glad to ditch them in favour of just DLing my stuff. The only reason I even buy physical stuff anymore is for Collector's Editions when it comes to PC stuff. Steam saves me the trouble of going to the store and having to keep the disc(s) and boxes in my house. Do you still buy CDs instead buying / "acquiring" mp3s/some other format?

I really cannot understand calling Steam draconian when its still the best digital distributor out there by a country mile and beats ever form of DRM there is.



No, Bethesda comes out the winner since they make more money from digital distribution than they do from retail sales http://www.mcvuk.com/features/808/OPINION-Retail-vs-Steam . Anyone hating on Steam should give that a read to understand why Bethesda would team up with Valve.

whether they make more through digi-distro or disc isn't relevant since it all uses the same system & as such there really is no option for someone that doesn't have access to high-speed internet. Seriously this isn't about hating Steam or those that love it. we'd just like to be able to enjoy the game as well.

NOTE: the link gave me a 404 error

I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE Steam with a vengeance. its never benefited me, and it has limited my playing more than enough times. please dont use steam next time beth/obsidian.

It is. I laughed my ass off when Ritual went defunct. I still occasionally laugh when I am able to play a game where countless others (sometimes thousands) are unable to . . . :laugh:

I don't get how you can say it isn't relevant just because it uses the same system, they are still selling digital copies of the game and making more money off of them in the end.

Fixed link, period was being added to the URL.



It is laughable or it is a failed concept?

A question : For god's sake, why does Steam updates the game so often, as there was only 2 or 3 patches ?

We don't know what is added or not, and spend our time looking at a downloading bar...

I've only seen one major update for the game, as for not knowing what the patch has in it thats Bethesda's fault for not putting out a message for Steam to show you. It's not Valve's game or patch, they don't know what all is in it either.

@Toprem

You really don’t get it do you?

In simple easy to understand words:

Steam does not mean Digital Distribution
Digital Distribution does not mean Steam

A while ago I purchased a game called Mount & Blade. It was digitally distributed to me as a feature restricted demo. I tried it out for a few days and decided that it was something that I would like. I went back online with my debit card in hand to purchase this game. At the time of my purchase I was given the instructions on how to unlock/activate the full game. Within minutes I was playing the full game. As it was a free demo I was allowed, even encouraged, to share it with a friend who lives in an area without reliable high speed internet. I burned the demo to a disk and took it to his house. He installed it on his new laptop, but his internet connection was still linked to his old desktop. No problem! He was able to use his slow internet connection on the desk top to purchase and activate the game, he just used a thumb drive to transfer the activation files from desktop to laptop. It took a few minutes longer for him to download the extra files but it was still less than five minutes. Since that time there have been patches released for the game and neither of us ever had a problem loading them at the time of our choosing.

This, for me, was the perfect game buying experience. I don’t have to be online to play. I don’t need otherwise useless third party software running just to play. If I really wanted I could install my licensed version on as many computers as I want (limited to 2 installs per month) and play them all simultaneously. I can (and have) log into the Mount & Blade community and do all the chatting I want. If my computer explodes and I lose my hard drive I can redownload and reactivate my game. Before spending any money I was able to verify that: this game worked on my machine, was free of any major game breaking bugs and was a game I even wanted. So yes, by comparison I find Steam to be draconian, and the Ubisoft/EA DRMs to be a nightmare.

So you see, I’m not trying to argue the validity of digital distribution. (you do see that right?) My issue is with the use of the Steamworks SDK which forces all end users to use Steam regardless of how the game was purchased. (Direct2Drive, Impulse, Retail) Also if you want to espouse the merits of digital distribution, you need to find an article written by someone who actually has a clue about market forces.

An average retail store has a customer base of a few thousand, a small percentage of that being gamers. These stores live and die by their ability to read their customer base, they cannot afford to overstock items. By contrast an online retailer, like Steam, has a customer base of several million, all of whom are gamers, and absolutely no concern about product volume. A Retail store has limited shelf space to display its products. When I go to the games section of a retail store I too notice that the Console Games section gets two whole aisles yet Computer Games section gets only half an aisle, but I’m not so short sighted that I take this as an affront to computer gaming. To the contrary I believe that it is the console gamers getting short changed. In the above example 4 entire shelves are for Computer games, 2 for Xbox 360, 2 for PS3, 2 for Wii, 1 for PS2, 1 for PSP and 1 for Nintendo DS. I find that this is typical in all retail stores.

Steam still is a digital distribution method and by far the largest distributor. I can do all the things you mentioned about Mount and Blade right now if I wanted to because Mount and Blade is sold on Steam.

As for needing to find an article and the guy having a clue about market forces, you do realize that it was written by the publishing director for a game company, right? I'm pretty sure the guy knows what he's talking about.

Have you been in a retail store lately? Specifically one that sells just games? PC games don't exactly get a lot of shelf space in stores any more, especially places that only sell games. Im more than willing to bet that I was one of the few, if only, people buying the PC version of FONV at midnight on release day. I didn't stick around to see what the people behind me got, but everyone in front of me got the console version. If digital distribution keeps on going like it is, especially Steam, then the PC section at stores is going to keep getting smaller to the point where they just stop selling them. I don't know what kind of retail store you went to, but it must be a fairly odd one to have that much space for PC games and that few for the consoles.

Exactly!! M&B is not a Steamworks games, but if you wanted you could have all your favorite Steam features while using it. There was absolutley no reason for New Vegas to be a Steamworks game. Anyone who wanted to use Steam can get it through Steam and be happy, those of us who don't want Steam, for whatever reason, shouldn't be forced to use it.

You use Steam and you're happy with it, great! I'm happy that you're happy. I would like to be happy too. Having the option to use Steam or Direct2Drive or Retail or any other means of distribution would make me happy, and it wouldn't harm you in any way. As it is right now all roads lead to Steam but not everyone wants to end up there.



Publishing is different from Marketing. There are numerous stories in the entertainment world about the horrible marketing/advertising/release decisions made by the Publisher/Producer, usually over the objections of the Writers/Directors/Artist/Programmers. Like the ET video game for Atari, Jethro Tulls Grammy for "Best Metal Album", The very misleading cover art for The Zombie Diaries and the inclusion of Steamworks in single player games.





Honestly I only go into the Video Game only stores when I 'm looking to purchase an older pre-owned title. They tend to be rather small, with all the console games against one wall the Computer games share a wall with the counter and there are some baskets or shelves in the middle with the pre-owned games. In my example I was refering some little retail place I go to sometimes called Best Buy.

The guy is still going to know more about marketing and how to sell the game than some random schmuck you pick up off the streets. The fact that he was able to tell there was a demand for his game through Steam is kind of proof that he knows what hes talking about.

Your Best Buy is set up differently than mine then, especially if all the shelves were the same size. I know mine has a huge amount of shelf space for the consoles and they are much more visible than the PC section. Not to mention that the PC section isn't kept up very well and has a lot of janky games on it along with stuff thats old as dirt. I haven't even seen the PC section in a while now since they've revamped the layout of the store again and now the games are all up near the front of the store, I didn't see where the PC games were.

What hoot I thought I got shot in the foot with a 360 vershion. A member of my family got the Fallout NV for his PC..I lucked out I just lost 60 bucks plus tax for this trash game.
If you like STEAM fine. Use the web sight in all it's glory. However a simple registration validation and valid email is all that required. A simple "yes this is a valid disk install" Mail notification of updates to the desired game{s} connect at will and down load the updates. NO WAY will it become standerd fair. Any game company that forces one to join a websight that sells products in order to able use an existing legally bought computer software product is not to stop pirates This isnt a mutiplayer game that requires a connection to play. What many companys did was validated the disk and left us alone to play. I didnt purchace this game for the PC because my system is to old but my family did buy it for PC. He is ditching the game because it crashes his computer often and STEAM is intrusive.

Did you BUY A STEAM COMMERCIAL or the PC game of FALLOUT NEW VEGAS? Looks like people bought A STEAM commercial. Welcome to the wonderful world of being monitored for customer use of the net.
The best resoan to not go for PC games is hardware/sortware issues as it is. No two computers are alike and sometimes it is hard to install PC games because of conflict in software. Conficts are terrible to those whom are not savey enough to fix glitches in installs when they happen, add a walking commercial that has unlimited rights to waltz into a PC and spam/spy the hell out of it the whole experiance was one worth missing.

Good luck people.

Actually it looks like it has a good chance of becoming standard fair as CoD7 was released just like FONV and uses Steam and VAC to its advantages.

As for the game crashing, that has nothing to do with Steam and is all on Bethesda/Obsidian, and if you haven't noticed it by now all of the version of FONV are plagued by crashing and freezing issues. As for Steam being intrusive, lol... double lol @ the monitoring and stuff, go back to wearing your tin-foil hat there buddy, also you do realize that the PS3 and XBox would be doing the same thing assuming you had them connected to the internet, right?

& Steam gets ever closer to it's own possible demise (split up due to monopolizing the digi-distro market)

when is it ever a good idea to put all the "eggs in one basket" so to speak?

How is it monopolizing it anymore than Windows "monopolizes" the operating system market? You don't have a monopoly on something just because you sell the most and they aren't making a monopoly just because the game uses Steam even though it was a retail copy, the retailer still made that sale, not Steam. Again, just because Steam does something you don't like in the case of FONV doesn't mean its going to just up and die.