I am not new to the concept of Steam. I first encountered it when I heard there was a sequel to Half-Life. I did some research and decided that it wasn’t something I wanted to bother with. Then over the years more and more was being done to and with Steam and I’ve occasionally gone back to see what it has become. It seems that every time Steam gets “improved” it becomes less desirable to me. To this point I have just not been playing games that require Steam, but FO:NV has been on my list of Must Have games since it was announced. I had purposely stayed off the boards about it so that I would not read and spoilers, but I heard that some people had major bugs and I decided to check out a few of these posts so that I knew what to expect, that is when I first found out it was a Steamworks game. I was actually getting ready to go to the store and buy FO:NV when I read that. I did not buy the game, in fact I still have the cash in pocket that I was going to use. I’ve looked at Steam again and seen all that it has to offer, and I still want no part of it. A few weeks ago this attitude was labeled as “old fashioned”, then it was described as “computer illiterate” but now I’m seeing that not wanting Steam makes me a “Software Pirate”? This is just the lowest of the low blows, I hope it doesn’t continue to go down from there. (By the way, if someone loves Steam but not the UbiSoft DRM does that make them Part-Time Pirates?)

I asked this in another thread but I think I should ask again:

Does it really harm Steam users to have a non Steam version of the game? If the retail DVD version had Disk Check and the Steam version had Steam for DRM, would that really cause major problems for Steam? It seems to me that the Pro-Steam crowd got their way, why insult the rest of us who lost out?

'Dead Money' Available December 21st Exclusively on Xbox LIVE November 17, 2010 (Rockville, MD) – Bethesda Softworks?, a ZeniMax? Media company, today announced that Dead Money, the first downloadable content for Fallout?: New Vegas?, will be available exclusively on Xbox LIVE? for the Xbox 360? video game and entertainment system from Microsoft beginning December 21, 2010

Are they stupid or something FO:NV doesn't use the live system

If it passes, a new type of console exclusives will appear: games that are exclusive to consoles in European Union only and available for PC everywhere else. Because developers can guarantee that their program will almost definitely work as intended only if the system configuration is fixed.

Of course, every application or game will be released in EU at least one year after it is released in other countries. Even if the developers are willing to take risks releasing software for PC, they will wait till people worldwide find all bugs for them before releasing in EU. That means, of course, that EU gamers will import games from the United States to avoid waiting.

No wonder almost all software developers oppose this proposal.

Somehow I doubt that that will happen if this bill passes. If this becomes law, then other regions will implement similar rulings to prevent that their markets are flooded with "faulty" software.

Somehow I doubt that that will happen if this bill passes. If this becomes law, then other regions will implement similar rulings to prevent that their markets are flooded with "faulty" software.


Off course there are developers who are opposed but there are some merits in this proposal. With the current situation, Bethesda or any other developer can release a software product on the market and call it 'finished' when its clearly not and don't have to answer for that. They can decide NOT to release patches to address CTD's and other (major) issues that have come up over the past weeks. What this proposal actually says, is that (in this case) Bethesda should/are required to test their software more properly and thoroughly before releasing it onto the market as a 'finished' product and subsequently can be held accountable for that if that doesn't happen. If implemented, they will be forced to and if it takes a year longer before it will be released in Europe, so be it . . .

The idea behind this proposal isn't as black and white as (mostly) developers are trying to portray it. As long as there is software, there will always be 'bugs'. This proposal only deals with bugs that prevents people from playing the game altogether in a normal fashion, not with side quests that aren't working properly, graphic glitches and that whole song and dance but it's easier to see it that way where there is no need for it . . .

The problem is that there will ALWAYS be SOMEONE whose computer crashes no matter what game it is, and no matter how much it's tested. Some random clueless guy whose machine is full of malware and cobwebs is going to try to run a game and it will crash because his hardware and OS are in such a terrible state, and then he can claim that "the game doesn't work at all for me, it just crashes". 95% of the time, game crashes have nothing to do with just the game itself, they have to do with a combination of drivers, OS, hardware, and background software that somehow come together to cause a crash. That's the main difficulty with platform testing on a PC vs a console. With a console, everyone is using the same exact hardware, OS, and drivers, and there is no background software or malware running. With a PC, there are a million different combinations of those things, and most of them will continue to change during the life of the game as the user updates his drivers, downloads more crap off the internet, or upgrades his video card.

If you would've read the proposal more carefully, then you would've undoubtedly realized that this proposal doesn't include the random clueless guy in your example. Out of a 1000 units sold, there is a difference between a small minority (let's say around a dozen people) or that a large group (let's say about 30-35% or 1/3, which comes roughly about 350 to 400 people) who are experiencing the exact same, identical problem(s) with the game. As I said earlier, there will always be 'bugs' in software or other conditions that will prevent people from using software or in this case, playing the game. This proposal only applies to the latter rather then the first because it simply cannot be guaranteed that every piece of software will work of every available computer. It's just impossible but it's easier to see it that way . . .

Steam is better then Games For Windows Live...

Whys that then do you prefer to have a soft copy of a program that could take upto 5 hours to download or a hard copy that can take a minimum of 5 minutes to install on your system.

Whys that then do you prefer to have a soft copy of a program that could take upto 5 hours to download or a hard copy that can take a minimum of 5 minutes to install on your system.

Yes, as then I don't have to worry about if I lose the Discs.

I had no troubles at all, installing F:NV. Everything worked fine and the whole process took about 15 minutes. Only had problems with Steam in the very beginning, some 6-7 years ago.



"lose the discs" ? I'm hearing this a lot and seriously don't understand this statement from people who like Steam (or not)

If you buy a game, how the heck can it happen to get damaged, or even lost? Apparently some gamers (a lot, actually) don't take care of their stuff. at all.

I still have PC games from the late nineties, such as Half-Life, Unreal and Quake 3, in their old school big boxes with all the inserts and booklets 100% intact and undamaged. The boxes may have some shelf wear but nothing to serious. My brother still has a small collection of SNES games from the early/mid nineties, also fully complete and in excellent condition, and the console which still works flawless. My dad has a fairly big vinyl collection with albums ranging from the seventies till nineties, all still clean and excellent sounding.
Maybe it runs in my family to take care of a collection of games/music that we're fond of like some kind of paranoid, but I think it's more likely that a lot of kids these days are completely oblivious to the notion of cherishing your collection of hardcopy media. I am really sorry for them, because it's a great feeling, to have that, you know.
But have fun throwing around your game discs and losing them and damagin/losing them :thumbsup:
[end of off-topic rant]

I had no troubles at all, installing F:NV. Everything worked fine and the whole process took about 15 minutes. Only had problems with Steam in the very beginning, some 6-7 years ago.



"lose the discs" ? I'm hearing this a lot and seriously don't understand this statement from people who like Steam (or not)

If you buy a game, how the heck can it happen to get damaged, or even lost? Apparently some gamers (a lot, actually) don't take care of their stuff. at all.

I still have PC games from the late nineties, such as Half-Life, Unreal and Quake 3, in their old school big boxes with all the inserts and booklets 100% intact and undamaged. The boxes may have some shelf wear but nothing to serious. My brother still has a small collection of SNES games from the early/mid nineties, also fully complete and in excellent condition, and the console which still works flawless. My dad has a fairly big vinyl collection with albums ranging from the seventies till nineties, all still clean and excellent sounding.
Maybe it runs in my family to take care of a collection of games/music that we're fond of like some kind of paranoid, but I think it's more likely that a lot of kids these days are completely oblivious to the notion of cherishing your collection of hardcopy media. I am really sorry for them, because it's a great feeling, to have that, you know.
But have fun throwing around your game discs and losing them and damagin/losing them :thumbsup:
[end of off-topic rant]

Honestly though, back on topic, if Steam is the "problem", why not ask on the Steam forums how to solve your problems. I don't see any amount of crying getting Bethesda to remove Steam interfacing from FONV.

Dear Steam,

I have a problem with your very existence. Please radically and retroactively change your entire business model.

Thank you



No, I don't think that would work. And to be fair I don't have a problem with Steam, I have a problem with the Steamworks SDK. This is what ties the digitally distributed games (and some retail distributions like FO:NV) irrevocably to Steam. Let's pretend for a moment that I am an awesome programmer who develops the ultimate Digital Distribution network. If I sell a copy of a Steamworks game it doesn't matter how good my software is, the buyer will never be allowed to use it for that game. In fact if that buyer decides they like my system better than Steam they need to either maintain both systems or lose their 100+ games still tied to their Steam account.

As I have said before, I have no issue with online verification (not that it will stop piracy but the company can say they tried) provided there is a workaround for those without an active internet connection. I do have an issue with being forced to install and maintain a service that has zero to offer me but threatens to take plenty.

"This thread and threads like it are simple a vocal minority defiantly standing on the train tracks in hopes that their complaining will some how stop the train of progress. "

And people wonder why folks say that computer gaming is dying... when customers have to work this hard just to use a product they bought, the industry is shooting itself in the foot. I can understand why so many people have moved on to gaming consoles. I haven't done that as of yet, but it may happen.

What I think is the completely stupid thing about it is that STEAM doesn't deter from a game being cracked. No matter how much they do with a game to try to protect it.. it still gets cracked and pirated. All this over protection does is make it more difficult for people who legitimately purchase the game to play the game they want to play how they want to play it. It's simply stupid.

The reason PC gaming is dying Is because of the lack of DRM in the past, Gamers were well warned of the consequences of what would happen if PC piracy continued, and since Most people didnt heed that warning, the only thing saving the PC gaming industry is DRM,DRM svcks horribly it does, but its our only other solution to protect the economy of PC gaming and the longevity. The only other choice is picking up an xbox360 and enjoying your limited,unmoddable,exclusive game.