And the Falmer are...

and when was fair even partof a Nords 'Fight well or die well" mentality. In the duel u use whatever weapons are available and ALSO Ulfric trained with the Greybeards for 20 yrs. As big of a really devoted fan the king was he knew Ulfric could use the voice and challenged him anyway.

You completely contradicted yourself, the land the Nords conquered is theirs but the land the Empire conquerd isn't?

Why? Because they didn't purge the inhabitants from it?

Empire never conquered Skyrim. Nords saw Ysgrimir and said, "That dude's legit" and allied with him. The empire's never taken military action against Skyrim til the rebellion.

Mages can summon fireballs against their foes as well as icestorms, so if im using a sword and board this is fair? If you dont like Nord tradition and customs head your way back to Cyrodiil.

To all the people who say Ulfric murdered the High King: ANY NORD, can learn to use the voice, Ulfric didn't have an unfair advantage. He challegened in the traditional Nord way and defeated him, plain and simple. Torygg didn't have the voice? booohooo, then he should have learned it. Ulfric said it himself. If he can't defend himself, how can he defend his people? Plus Elisif is a bimbo. Pay attention to what people say in the game.

Ulfric is not a Thalmor agent. Read the dossier again, and the lore.

High King wasn't murdered.

No evidence to say that a UNIFIED Skyrim wouldn't be able stop the Thalmor

No evidence to say that Skyrim wouldn't help the Empire defeat the Thalmor, they just want to be free. Yes they hate the Empire and all that stuff but Ulfric is stupid.

Yes the Stormvloaks are a bit racist, some more than others. That is the only reason i feel like the Empire would be a better choice, as everyone would be happy under there own rule, not just nords.

And yes, people are like "but Ulfric can barely defeat the Empire, how could he beat the Thalmor? adgslfgafl" The truth is the country was split, it wasn't unified. A lot of Nords either weren't fighting or were with the Legion, plus with the dragonborn and the blades on his side when he goes against the Thalmor, I'm sure the will be okay. If hammerfell, the Empire, and Skyrim, and anyone else who is left in the other provinces band together, they can defeat the thalmor. it isn't Empire vs Thalmor. Its everyone vs Thalmor, whether or not Skyrim is in the Empire.

It may be unfair but think it in the Nordic way. If you are Nord or Orc you can easily understand that the challenge is challenge and the leader of warriors should be the strongest one of them.

The choice is simple.

Do you prefer the Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion to take over the empire in the long run? Go with The Stormcloaks.

Do you prefer independence and religious freedom in the long run? Go with the Legion.

Do you not care who takes over and only want the most enjoyable playthrough? You decide.

If you have no evidence to back up what you say, you might as well not say it.

I had the same problem, but then I realised there is no spoon.

Cool story, bro. What are you talking about? Tell it again.

It is typical Machiavellian posturing.

The Thalmor thought they could topple the empire after the oblivion crisis severly weakened it, but miscalculated and ended up in a draw.
The empire signed the treaty as a chance to buy time and regroup. Given time, the empire would be stronger then the Thalmor.
Knowing this, the Thalmor attempt to further weaken the empire with civil war in Skyrim... and do everything in their power to make sure the war drags on, and is not concluded.


As for using the voice on the High King.

Nords know what the voice is. Using it is a demonstration of exceptional personal power to awe everyone in Skyrim. What the empire calls murder, Nords think as superiority in personal prowess.

No evidence to suggest that the empire couldn't survive another war against the Thalmor if a unified Skyrim joined with them in battle, as it hasn't happened yet.

No evidence to suggest there would not be freedom of religion under Ulfric, considering that is what he is fighting for anyway.

And Lord Orion, concerning your spoiler. He was.....was. Not anymore.

Tell that to the Thalmor.

Thats what they think is going to happen, but we don't know. Because it hasn't happened. Can you guys please read the dossier on Ulfric? Carefully?

I took these quotes out of context from it, you guys all know what the negative parts say. PAY ATTENTION TO THE BOLD PLEASE:

The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

They don't want either side to win, and Ulfric isn't helping them.

My understanding is this; the Thalmor were kicking humanity's asses and came up with this treaty that basically says "hey we won't kick your asses anymore, but that means no Talos worship for you," and due to the Empire being backed into a corner HAD to agree. Cue Ulfric using that as an excuse to seize power and shout Torygg to pieces (in an unfair duel I'd say), that sows the seeds of discord among humankind for the Thalmor to just sit back and watch the 2 factions wipe each other out. The Thalmor mop up and pick at everyone's bones. With Ulfric, I say unfair duel because for one, he used a shout. He fought a challenge against basically a teenager and overkilled him. That to me, doesn't show strength. To defeat a weak enemy isn't a triumph. Opportunistic yes but a show of strength? Debatable. Plus, I came across notes in my game that he was paid off by the Thalmor. It took me 3 playthroughs to come to all this ( and I wish to god I could remember where I saw the notes/book/whatever saying Ulfric was a Thalmor sleeper agent) but based on this, not to mention Baalgruuf, Ilisef and Tullius are genuinely trying for the greater good, my choice is made.

If you are Nord, you should back the Stormcloaks. No questions asked.

The first part of this paragraph is true, that is exactly what the thalmor intended, the only who doesn't realize this is Ulfric. However, maybe to you the duel was unfair, but to the Nords it was not. Any Nord could learn to use the Voice and Ufric challenged him in the Nord way, Torygg wasn't a boy, he was the High King of Skyrim, he should have been able to defend himself.

For the last point, see my above post.

If you don't like the snotty elves go stormcloaks if you like sellouts who had a good reason to go legion. both have a slight elitist attuide so its really that simple.

Wrong. The Great War states the entire thalmor attack force(Save for the remnant in hammerfall) was destroyed at Red Ring.

Torygg could have backed down from the challenge. He wouldn't be high king anymore, but he would still be a Jarl. He accepted the duel on the terms presented to him.

Very interesting discussion. Frankly though, if I want to hear stories about a morally grey world, I can watch CNN (or the BBC). I like my games a little more black and white frankly. There isn't much motivation for me to join either side. What happens if you don't? Isn't there a outcome based on the main quest?

The only effect the war has on the main quest is that you'll have to broker a temporary peace at some point for (spoiler) event. It also influences a little bit of an endgame area(IF and only if you've completed the civil war by that time)

I have played both sides and with the lore/hints you find out. The Empire is actually in the right. There is no disputing that if you read the notes etc around. Ulfric is a puppet, the Empire has to play nice with the Thalmor.

There is a way to dispute it if you read the notes. Read them again, read about the lore, and listen to what people say in the game.

Neither one is "right" but Ulfric isn't as wrong as people make him out to be

You mean the notes that say Ulfric tries to kill any agent they send to him, and that they are to ensure that he doesn't win the war?

The lore states that Talos is the only reason the world hasn't ended already. Stormcloaks may be rash, but I'd say destruction of the world takes higher priority over possible loss to thalmor.(Even that's doubtful. The thalmor got whipped good at Red Ring, and they breed very slowly making replacement forces hard to come up with.)