I am still having a hard time choosing Legion or Stormcloaks : V - Skyrim

» Thu May 31, 2012 2:48 am

For those who say Ulfric is racist...there's a book that goes on about how dark elves in the Grey Quarter are corrupt and aren't adapting to Nordic customs as they are expected to, just following their own. Crime is supposedly rampart there too. I'm sure if you let some foreigners in and they screwed around with your city, paying no respect for the local laws and customs, you'd be pretty pissed too.

Was that book written by a Nord? If so, that is obviously biased in favour of the Nords.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:05 pm

I have saved the civil war and mage guild quests until last, made a new character and started with the Stormcloaks. After attacking a caravan in the main quest I couldnt talk to the guy afterwards and I had no backup save. Tried everything Ive dealt with bugs before so I got really peed. Had to restart just to get the trophies for this questline.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:46 am

I would always go with the Imperials

» Thu May 31, 2012 2:21 pm

There is no right or wrong, just which jarl rules the holds. You need to talk to all the jarls, find out which one you like the best and support whichever side they are on. I've done both sides and neither is entirely right or entirely wrong. The Thalmor are manipulating both sides. They should come to a peace agreement but both Tullius and Ulfric are thick headed and can't win anyway without the dragonborn.

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:17 am

I love how you latch onto the only two bad Jarls allied to the Legion and point to the ONLY decent Jarl on the Stormcloak side.

Spoilers!

Spoiler

Dawnstar's Stormcloak Jarl is a hokerr who blames the Imperials for everything from Dragons to his pants being too tight. Talos is gonna come down and beat them all up himself!
Winterhold's Stormcloak Jarl is a bigot who blames the College for what happened to the city, despite having absolutely no proof and ignores how the College is also the only reason people still visit his backwards town.

You wanna talk about Maven? Two words: Silver, Blood.

Nevermind the fact that Lalia knows Ulfric isn't what his supporters make him out to be. Surprising given how naive she is with regards to Maven and her steward.

You should also check into the Battle-Borns some more... particularly the reasons as to why they have that letter in the first place.

Why are people trying to defend Ulfric on the racist point? If you ever deigned to go to the docks and chat with the Argonians you might discover that ULFRIC, not some other shmuck whom you can blame, decided he couldn't let his poor Nords suffer living alongside filthy lizards and personally banned them from his city. Nooo.... not racist at all. They're just filthy beggars who expect handouts! They aren't good minorities who keep their traps shut and accept the noble rulership of their Nord superiors.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, but Maven effectively controls Riften from the start. As she says: "Now it's official." She still helps you wipe out the Skooma Dealer even if for very different reasons than Lalia.

Great post. I like the fact Bethesda didn't give a clear cut bad guys over there, good guys over here with the two main factions.

For those who say Ulfric is racist...there's a book that goes on about how dark elves in the Grey Quarter are corrupt and aren't adapting to Nordic customs as they are expected to, just following their own. Crime is supposedly rampart there too. I'm sure if you let some foreigners in and they screwed around with your city, paying no respect for the local laws and customs, you'd be pretty pissed too. Not that it makes me like Ulfric much more, but there's more to him then alot of people realize I think.

Yeeeeah.... do you believe everything you read in books? :biggrin:

Now, if Ulfric were to stop this war, or better yet, join forces with the Empire, they could easily take back their land from the Thalmor and things could return to the way they use to be (for the most part). The empire has always put peace and safety of its residence first, the Empire may hold throne in Cyrodill but the Empire is actually about every province that allies with them.

Also, the Empire IS NOT mainly Imperials, Imperials reside in Cyrodill, yes, but the Nords made the empire great, Tiber Septim (Talos) being a Nord himself. So it doesn't make a ton of sense for Nords to break away form something that has always bin good for them, and has bin ruled by their own.

Another thing, The empire is keeping the Dominion (were the Thalmor came from) out of Skyrim, so things could be 10x worse.

And, finally. Even if Ulfric wins, against both Thalmor, and Empire, Racism will set in and replace the ban on Talos, probably meaning Dunmer, Khajiit, Argonians, and the rest of the elves, maybe even Imperials not allowed in Skyrim, at all. While if the Empire win against Ulfric, and Thalmor, Talos will be back, and Racism will not take place, thanks to the Empire being multi-cultural.

TL;DR
Stormcloaks = About NOW (screw the future all about Skyrim and Nords)
Empire = About the future (They believe they can put up with hard times to create a better future for all of Tamriel)

And that is why I say - For the Empire!

» Thu May 31, 2012 3:47 pm

It goes like this for me.

If I play Nord or possibly Redguard I will join the Stormcloaks.
If I play elvin kind I will not join either faction.
If I play any other race I will join the Empire.

One exception. If I play a Orc it really does not matter to him as long as he gets to kill things.

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:59 pm

Was that book written by a Nord? If so, that is obviously biased in favour of the Nords.

Yeah, but then again that book has a counter-book written by a Dunmer ("The DUnmer of Windhelm", iirc), and frankly it kinda shows the dunmer in a very very bad light. Sort of intended as a riposte to the nord-book, but actually just furthers their point.

» Thu May 31, 2012 5:06 pm

it depens on what you are fighting for

if you base your action's on "logic" (see conjecture/supposition) then you support the empire because they are the glorious, true and great bastion of freedom they will rebuild stronger then ever drive off the Thalmor and once again allow the worship of the man god talos plus there will be bunnies and rainbows for everyone (besides the stormcloaks are just racist peasants that have crap cities and can't see the bigger picture)

if you base your actions on whats happening at the moment then you support the stormcloaks because the empire is in tatters allowing entire areas loyal to the empire to be wiped out (see orc homeland) the empire is under the thumb of the Thalmor other areas have already left the empire because of this (see hammerfell) they ban the worship of Talos and allow the thalmor to roam around freely locking up the local nords who wont throw away their devotion simply because its the easy way out (also the empire is filled with inferior outsiders that arent nords they dont give 2 cents worth a damn about skyrim other then as a strategic location filled with good fighters)

» Thu May 31, 2012 10:18 am

I suppose Bethesda had to make the Nords racist because otherwise they have too much going for them. I mean, usually these decisions are fairly 50/50, and you have to think hard to choose one or the other, but I've always thought the Stormcloaks to be the obvious choice. It doesn't help that in the first cutscene of the game you're about to be beheaded by the Empire, how are you supposed to like them after that?

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:18 pm

I suppose Bethesda had to make the Nords racist because otherwise they have too much going for them. I mean, usually these decisions are fairly 50/50, and you have to think hard to choose one or the other, but I've always thought the Stormcloaks to be the obvious choice.

Most of them don't seem that bad and of course it isn't like all the Nords are siding with Ulfric, there still seems to be plenty of Empire support amongst the population.

It doesn't help that in the first cutscene of the game you're about to be beheaded by the Empire, how are you supposed to like them after that?

Wrong place, wrong time, in the middle of a guerrilla war. They didn't seem to take any joy in at least - if Tullus had made it obvious he knew you were innocent and you were going to be beheaded anyway it would be different (its not like any of the Stormcloaks I was with chipped in and said "hey, that one isn't with us".

Heh, I have a friends who likes to come up with detailed back stories. On his first play through his story was he actually was trying to join up with the Stormcloaks when they were captured.

» Thu May 31, 2012 5:10 pm

what the hell its quite clear your not one of them

your getting your head cut off because your about to witness a war crime!
the imperials know they cant afford to bring ulfric in without stirring up all the Nords like a hornets nest so they plan to summary kill him and all his allies without trial

this makes even more sense when your told that the imperials were shocked when Ulfric surrended without a fight dispite his fighting to the death motto
the empire expected they could kill him in an ambush and be done with it

its entirely possible that Ulfric seeing he would be defeated ordered his men to stand down on the off chance the empire would be dumb enough to put him on trial leading to a stronger rebellion that would knock over the empire without the need for a war (let face it if most of skyrim sided with Ulfric the empire would do what they do best give in)

» Thu May 31, 2012 10:13 am

Here's the important details you won't be able to figure out in the game because they were given in either the lore forums by devs or you guys haven't been actually reading the in game books.

The only reason the world has existed as long as it has is because of Talos. He holds back the next kalpa. Gods need worship to be able to retain their power. The ban of Talos worship is what allowed Alduin to reawaken. The empire nearly destroyed the world by allowing that term. Mede didn't know it of course, but his acceptance of the concordat was more than the thalmor could have hoped for in that situation.

2nd. The entire thalmor attack force was wiped out at red ring. The one at Hammerfell was the only remaining one(And that one was defeated 5 years later) There was no need to sign the concordat.

3rd. Mede is a terrible leader that doesn't understand how to handle anything but Cyrodiil. It's better to have several allied independant nations than one supernation that can't coordinate.(And trust me, the redguards and nords would ally in a heartbeat to take on the thalmor. They'd welcome just about any race to join the fight.)

Oh and the fourth thing. The nords of windhelm have no problem with elves that actually try to fit in. There's a high elf running a stall in the marketplace doing just fine for herself because she didn't show up expecting a handout. Another elf actually living in the grey quarters confirms this. The grey quarter elves are mostly from great houses and were used to special treatement. You can go to any other stormcloak city and see plenty of non nords doing fine for themselves because they aren't being pompous asses.

I have to take issue with your second point - if you have read The Great War you would know the Empire was in no position to carry on in the war. It had taken its toll on both sides, hence the treaty, but its clear if it had carried on the Thalmor still had the numbers to crush the Empire, hence the Thalmor favoured treaty.

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:20 am

If you don't want Tamriel to be ruled by Thalmor you simply choose the empire and hope they win the war that is surely to come with the Thalmor. The Thalmor's highest objective is to rid Tamriel of all races but elves and make sure that the man race can never exist again on this continent. The empire is the only power in Tamriel that can withstand the Thalmor and win over them. Yes the empire has a lot of power but has shown great resistance to use it in bad ways. The empire treats all races with respect and unites the land not conquer and suppress the locals. With great power comes great responsibility, something they have succeeded in.

If you wish for a free Skyrim but a loss of the entire continent that is Tamriel in years to come you choose the Stormcloacks. Jarl Ulfric Stormcloack only cares about him being High king and all the power that comes with that. But the fate of Skyrim is surely to be extinction of the Nords when the Thalmor conquer the divided man nations, If you want to fight for someone who only cares for himself go ahead and go with Ulfric. You can also choose the Stormcloacks if you want to suppress all other races and believe that Nords is the superior race(as the Thalmor thinks of themselves).

My choice was clear from the start. As a Nord I would never abandon an empire that has for so long given prosperity to Skyrim. I will not abandon it when the time comes when we are given the chance to give something back! Ulfric is the reason Talos can not be worshipped, he brought the justacars to skyrim not the concordant. Besides I would rather not worship Talos a few years than to doom the fate of man and beast races.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

Yeah, but then again that book has a counter-book written by a Dunmer ("The DUnmer of Windhelm", iirc), and frankly it kinda shows the dunmer in a very very bad light. Sort of intended as a riposte to the nord-book, but actually just furthers their point.

Every time I look at that book, I shake my head and think, "...And the Dunmers are wondering why the Nords hate them?"

As for my characters? Well, my Breton female has developed a crush for dear Hadvar, so she'll join the Legion in the hopes she'll meet him again.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:22 pm

The Stormcloaks are the EDL of Skyrim... watch out for those Elvish Ray Guns...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIPD8qHhtVU

» Thu May 31, 2012 8:14 am

what the hell its quite clear your not one of them

your getting your head cut off because your about to witness a war crime!
the imperials know they cant afford to bring ulfric in without stirring up all the Nords like a hornets nest so they plan to summary kill him and all his allies without trial

Yes, that is why they are hosting a semi-public execution in a Nord village a short way from an important Nord town (where one of the main Stormcloaks present hails from) and it is being attended by the senior Imperial Legion officer in Skyrim. They want to keep it secret and just shanking Ulfric in the woods and leaving his body there wouldn't be secret enough... wait a minute!

But I never got the sense they looked at my character and said "Witness. Silence them." Unless they were planning on killing everyone in the village afterwards. My character (and everyone else's) got caught in an ambush with the Stormcloaks. The Empire didn't listen to our proclamations of innocence obviously, but Tullus wasn't there giving the thumb down when Hadvar said our name wasn't on the list.

its entirely possible that Ulfric seeing he would be defeated ordered his men to stand down on the off chance the empire would be dumb enough to put him on trial leading to a stronger rebellion that would knock over the empire without the need for a war (let face it if most of skyrim sided with Ulfric the empire would do what they do best give in)

Maybe. I never got the sense there was ever a trial possible for Ulfric. Next time I'll listen more closely but the way Tullus was speaking made me think any judgement on Ulfric had long ago been passed and it was just a matter of carrying out the sentence.

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:27 am

SPOILERS AHEAD:

Does anything more happen after you capture solitude? There isn't a moot?! Guess it might be in DLC..

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:09 am

SPOILERS AHEAD:

Does anything more happen after you capture solitude? There isn't a moot?! Guess it might be in DLC..

you ride big fat booty bears :celebration:

» Thu May 31, 2012 3:08 am

SPOILERS AHEAD:

Does anything more happen after you capture solitude? There isn't a moot?! Guess it might be in DLC..

Spoiler

you get a nice speech and won the civil war

not much some things change that it

» Thu May 31, 2012 3:49 am

For me it was a pretty easy choice, sure the little commander [censored] was annoying at the beginning but I liked Hadvar a lot more than Ralof. The Stormcloaks seem to forget that a lot of the Empire don't actually like the Thalmor and are actually getting ready for another war with them very soon, there is no way that the Stormcloaks could stand against them on their own - the human nations of Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim need to stand together. I view this as something only the Empire could handle. The Stormcloaks will probably only use you if you are any other race than a Nord, whereas the Empire is a massive pool of cultural diversity.

» Thu May 31, 2012 3:33 am

All of you make a great point..... I am leaning towards the Empire now lol. I guess I will go to Windhelm and talk to Ulfric, and see his deal. Then i will go to Solitude, and if Ulfric's arguement didn't cut it, join the Legion.

» Thu May 31, 2012 3:00 pm

If you don't want Tamriel to be ruled by Thalmor you simply choose the empire and hope they win the war that is surely to come with the Thalmor.

That argument is not true. If you don't want Tamriel to be ruled by Thalmor you should never choose the empire. The empire (which means nowadays barely nothing more than Cyrodiilic people) fears the Thalmor so much that they'll give to Thalmor anything they want to avoid a war. That means the Thalmor influence in the empire is growing fast and before the empire even notices they have loose their identity to Thalmor which will take the rule of the empire as soon as it's possible.
If we want to stand against the Thalmor, Skyrim has to be freed and then allied with Hammerfell which is already separated from the empire.

» Thu May 31, 2012 12:34 pm

That argument is not true. If you don't want Tamriel to be ruled by Thalmor you should never choose the empire. The empire (which means nowadays barely nothing more than Cyrodiilic people) fears the Thalmor so much that they'll give to Thalmor anything they want to avoid a war. That means the Thalmor influence in the empire is growing fast and before the empire even notices they have loose their identity to Thalmor which will take the rule of the empire as soon as it's possible.
If we want to stand against the Thalmor, Skyrim has to be freed and then allied with Hammerfell which is already separated from the empire.

...wow...

I'd always been trying to figure out what side I was on. My char is great friends with Ralof for saving my life, so I was leaning Stormcloaks even though I play a Bosmer. Still, I thought that Skyrim splitting from the empire would be exactly what the Thalmor wanted to weaken everything further, so I started leaning Legion. I didn't consider that point.

Now I'm still confused and think both sides are wrong. Guess the main factor is friendship now, since all the leaders are corrupt.

» Thu May 31, 2012 1:27 pm

Ulfric only cares for Ulfric... The Empire did not want to ban Talos worship, but it was a fair price to pay to be able to still continue, to fight for another day.

If you think it is only the Empire being used by the Thalmor, then you didnt read the Thalmor log on Ulfric~ He may not know it, but he is also a puppet, hence why he was freed~ To be used to weaken the Empire even further by causing this civil war~
If Skyrim becomes independant, then the Empire cannot stop the Thalmor from walking all over them~

» Thu May 31, 2012 5:31 am

That argument is not true. If you don't want Tamriel to be ruled by Thalmor you should never choose the empire. The empire (which means nowadays barely nothing more than Cyrodiilic people) fears the Thalmor so much that they'll give to Thalmor anything they want to avoid a war. That means the Thalmor influence in the empire is growing fast and before the empire even notices they have loose their identity to Thalmor which will take the rule of the empire as soon as it's possible.
If we want to stand against the Thalmor, Skyrim has to be freed and then allied with Hammerfell which is already separated from the empire.

Considering that all the in-game evidence points to it being true, you had better back up your claim.